Talisman beating Torment as most boring league !

lumping content with the leagues is extremely illogical.

leagues are separate, and new content is separate. sure, if there is new content, GGG would be inclined to spend less time=money on new leagues, but in general, giving a league points for having new content that is accessible to permaleagues as well, is...how do I put it mildly...silly ?

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grepman wrote:

lumping content with the leagues is extremely illogical.

leagues are separate, and new content is separate. sure, if there is new content, GGG would be inclined to spend less time=money on new leagues, but in general, giving a league points for having new content that is accessible to permaleagues as well, is...how do I put it mildly...silly ?

Exactly this!
And you don't have to be mild, just say it's fucking stupid!

"

grepman wrote:

lumping content with the leagues is extremely illogical.

leagues are separate, and new content is separate. sure, if there is new content, GGG would be inclined to spend less time=money on new leagues, but in general, giving a league points for having new content that is accessible to permaleagues as well, is...how do I put it mildly...silly ?

No it isnt. A league is a unique event that happens only once. If it happens only once then all the content associated with it/all the content that is released with it is part of the experience because you experience it for the first time.

You cant create a server right now, select Invasion or Onslaught and come to the conclusion that Invasion is better. Onslaught was accessible for 4 months, and 4 months only. Therefore all the content that was accessibly for the first time back then is part of said league. Its not just 'part of the base game'. Its part of a unique timeline in the history of the game that were Onslaught and Anarchy.

Because at the end of the day it didnt matter if the league had 20% speed or nothing at all: what mattered was the unique experience and the content, be it an act, uniques, maps or something as simple as the skill balance. All these things are part of that unique experience, of that 'expansion' or patch.

Saying Onslaught 'was bad' because the league modifier was shit is probably the dumbest thing you can say, simply because the league modifier was a fraction of the overall experience. And at the end you sure as hell wont say "Well, you know I had fun playing this league but the league modifier was so dull that I think I just thought I had fun but actually didnt". You base that conclusion on the overall experience. Unless you didnt play the league at all and simply looked at some articles on the wiki instead.

again, vehemently disagree

'experience' is a broad term and can include some extraneous stuff that isnt 'league' relevant, sorry.

lockstep was introduced in warbands/tempest. so does that mean those leagues were better than previous leagues because of lockstep ? did it introduce unique experience ? sure, it was the biggest technical change in the game's public history.

were those leagues better because of the act 4 ? no, act 4 is accessible to the entire base game. I could experience a4 all the same on standard. how does that gain points for leagues ? it doesn't.

learning how to separate particulars from overall 'experience' is imperative, not just in the game but in life as well. otherwise you will get a wrong and biased impressions about certain events simply because of overall experience as pertaining to you.

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grepman wrote:

again, vehemently disagree

'experience' is a broad term and can include some extraneous stuff that isnt 'league' relevant, sorry.

lockstep was introduced in warbands/tempest. so does that mean those leagues were better than previous leagues because of lockstep ? did it introduce unique experience ? sure, it was the biggest technical change in the game's public history.

were those leagues better because of the act 4 ? no, act 4 is accessible to the entire base game. I could experience a4 all the same on standard. how does that gain points for leagues ? it doesn't.

learning how to separate particulars from overall 'experience' is imperative, not just in the game but in life as well. otherwise you will get a wrong and biased impressions about certain events simply because of overall experience as pertaining to you.

Rating an experience IS ALWAYS SUBJECTIVE, so it doesnt fucking matter if youre biased. Jesus Christ, do you suffer from some severe mental disability? There is no nature given law that tells us what is right or wrong, what is good or bad, what is best or worst. We as people subjectively decide what is and isnt.

But you did a brilliant job at presenting the most atrocious analogy I have read this month. Lockstep is a mechanic that improves your gameplay in general. Its not something that loses its value after having seen it once. Because thats basically what content does. A unique item, a skill, a map, an act, none of those will be as interesting the second time you saw them. Lockstep is a network related mechanic that will make the game more enjoyable no matter how often you use it. If Lockstep isnt improved you wouldnt care. If there werent any new items then you sure as hell would.

So if anything you could say that in your opinion any league that came prior to Tempest was shit because lockstep didnt exist. And why exactly would that not be legit? If that change is so essential to you, then its just fair to rank your enjoyment with it in mind. The best league is the league that you had most fun in. There is no 'objectively best league' that can be decided by looking at a handful of parameters. Every person has a favorite league for different reasons. And every league has ups and downs due to added content. And I would go as far as claim that there are quite a few people who had most fun in Onslaught/Anarchy.

Looking back and saying "League modifier was shit" is basically like saying "Lets ignore all the other content the developer worked on at that time, all the content that was introduced and therefore ate up time that couldnt be used to brainstorm different league concepts because.. you know... fuck it the league modifier was shit". And that makes no sense whatsoever. The only thing that matters is the bigger picture. Perfect example is Talisman. The league is ridiculously boring and thats not just because of its added mechanics. Those are just an addition to the experience. If the uniques or skills were interesting, or they had introduced Atziri 2.0, then you wouldnt give a shit about the league modifier.

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nynyny wrote:

Rating an experience IS ALWAYS SUBJECTIVE,

sure, but first we arent evaluating an experience but rather league in comparison, and second people try to sound objective, because being biased will get you nowhere. if your wife had a baby during a league or if you got laid off at work, you probably have a very different experience from other people playing the league, and while that's understandable, it shouldn't affect your opinion of the league

"

so it doesnt fucking matter if youre biased.

yes, yes it does. biased opinions are rarely worth anything, as they have agenda or skewed point of view.

"

Jesus Christ, do you suffer from some severe mental disability?

no, I do not. do you ? is that why you're asking ?

"

But you did a brilliant job at presenting the most atrocious analogy I have read this month. Lockstep is a mechanic that improves your gameplay in general. Its not something that loses its value after having seen it once. Because thats basically what content does. A unique item, a skill, a map, an act, none of those will be as interesting the second time you saw them.

by your logic, nerfs and buffs to skills are part of the content too. yet they dont 'lose value'. you're rating your 'overall experience', remember ? your words, not mine.

"

So if anything you could say that in your opinion any league that came prior to Tempest was shit because lockstep didnt exist. And why exactly would that not be legit?

.
because thats illogical and highly biased. that's like saying, vegas was always bullshit before I got a lot of money. but thats highly biased and doesnt tell anyone anything- everyone understands vegas wasnt bullshit, its just you werent able to enjoy it. boo hoo.

"

If that change is so essential to you, then its just fair to rank your enjoyment with it in mind. The best league is the league that you had most fun in. There is no 'objectively best league' that can be decided by looking at a handful of parameters. Every person has a favorite league for different reasons. And every league has ups and downs due to added content. And I would go as far as claim that there are quite a few people who had most fun in Onslaught/Anarchy.

sure, thats fine- but if your opinion was largely swayed by something external, it becomes a very irrelevant one to the quality of the leagues themselves. someone could have the most fun in a league because of a super expensive drop or an op skill they use or something IRL. doesnt make the league 'good' objectively - its an anecdotal evidence and a silly justification for a league being good.

it doesnt mean the league was the best theyve had- its just their 'experience' was good. thats like looking back to 'good times' when you were well off and saying the times were the best. its selfish, subjective and worthless. I mean, yeah I'm happy for you and all but in a large discussion it's largely irrelevant.

I'm loving this league, at the moment I feel like I have more options for things to do than ever before, and I can choose how I want to be playing, not just endlessly doing my highest tier maps.
- The 32 challenges are great (except for the ID ones, they suck), gives me a whole bunch of different things to work on
- The talisman mechanics are cool, adds both random encounters AND farmable stone circles

(PS I actually like the low drop rate of rare talismans, makes finding one (and finding a decent one) far more meaningful)

talisnam is great fun, i just had some time off early before christmas holidays and rushed to rigwald in 2 weeks, also got some nice goodies

now i'm off to winter holidays and i can say the league is worth it, same as all the other leagues i played.

i often don't understand players describing some league "teh worst league" as it often lacks a reason. too grindy, unrewarding, too challenging aren't really reasons i'm willing to accept as that is what poe is about.

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grepman wrote:

"

nynyny wrote:

Rating an experience IS ALWAYS SUBJECTIVE,

sure, but first we arent evaluating an experience but rather league in comparison, and second people try to sound objective, because being biased will get you nowhere. if your wife had a baby during a league or if you got laid off at work, you probably have a very different experience from other people playing the league, and while that's understandable, it shouldn't affect your opinion of the league

Stop projecting. Just because youre not capable to differentiate between ingame and IRL doesnt mean the same applies for other people.

"

"

so it doesnt fucking matter if youre biased.

yes, yes it does. biased opinions are rarely worth anything, as they have agenda or skewed point of view.

Go ahead, tell me the objective parameters that make X league better than Y league. Cant wait for this.

"

"

But you did a brilliant job at presenting the most atrocious analogy I have read this month. Lockstep is a mechanic that improves your gameplay in general. Its not something that loses its value after having seen it once. Because thats basically what content does. A unique item, a skill, a map, an act, none of those will be as interesting the second time you saw them.

by your logic, nerfs and buffs to skills are part of the content too. yet they dont 'lose value'. you're rating your 'overall experience', remember ? your words, not mine.

I literally said that they are in an earlier post. Might wanna start paying attention.

"

"

So if anything you could say that in your opinion any league that came prior to Tempest was shit because lockstep didnt exist. And why exactly would that not be legit?

.
because thats illogical and highly biased. that's like saying, vegas was always bullshit before I got a lot of money. but thats highly biased and doesnt tell anyone anything- everyone understands vegas wasnt bullshit, its just you werent able to enjoy it. boo hoo.

Bad analogy because Person A and B have different experience due to different level of funds. Lockstep wasnt a paid feature. Person A had access to it the same moment Person B did. Not earlier or later. Another atrocious analogy.

"

"

If that change is so essential to you, then its just fair to rank your enjoyment with it in mind. The best league is the league that you had most fun in. There is no 'objectively best league' that can be decided by looking at a handful of parameters. Every person has a favorite league for different reasons. And every league has ups and downs due to added content. And I would go as far as claim that there are quite a few people who had most fun in Onslaught/Anarchy.

sure, thats fine- but if your opinion was largely swayed by something external, it becomes a very irrelevant one to the quality of the leagues themselves. someone could have the most fun in a league because of a super expensive drop or an op skill they use or something IRL. doesnt make the league 'good' objectively - its an anecdotal evidence and a silly justification for a league being good.

Sure it does. There is no 'objectively best'. Hell, if I would I could just say that Onslaughts league mechanics were superior to Tempest and Invasions. What are you gonna do? Prove that I am objectively wrong? Based on what? Your subjective opinion? The fact that both these leagues had more sophisticated league modifiers? And who says that this is objectively better?

"

it doesnt mean the league was the best theyve had- its just their 'experience' was good. thats like looking back to 'good times' when you were well off and saying the times were the best. its selfish, subjective and worthless. I mean, yeah I'm happy for you and all but in a large discussion it's largely irrelevant.

See above.

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nynyny wrote:

Stop projecting. Just because youre not capable to differentiate between ingame and IRL doesnt mean the same applies for other people.

I am capable of differentiating between game and IRL, and I am also capable of using justification for whether a mechanic/league is 'bad' or 'good' in path of exile context way thats backed up by facts or logical statements, not 'because its the most fun Ive had'.

you seem to be incapable to understand the difference between 'its the most fun league Ive experienced personally' and 'this league was the best in the context of path of exile'

again, I couldve had most fun in the league where I got a big ticket item to drop. so for you, that would be the 'best league'. you dont see how its silly ? here, my favorite league was invasion (on launch). but I dont consider it the 'best' league in the context of path of exile, the playerbase and historical implications.

this isnt a 'I like pizza and you like hot dog' discussion

"

Go ahead, tell me the objective parameters that make X league better than Y league. Cant wait for this.

for you, I can provide any justification that isn't 'because I had fun in this particular league', and it would hold more weight.

one of such things is adding different item bases/mods that contribute to build diversity without making other items obsolete. this happens in talisman. this happened in warbands. this is a 'good' thing for poe as a game that is renowned for its customization options

a 'bad' thing is something that conversely limits/ encourages a specific way to play the game, such as rampage league.

there, I quantified some of the attributes. you might not agree with them, but I have specific logic behind them, and not just 'because I had most fun because a shavs dropped for me in that one'

"

I literally said that they are in an earlier post. Might wanna start paying attention.

I know that you did- and Im saying this literally contradicts your point.

"

Bad analogy because Person A and B have different experience due to different level of funds. Lockstep wasnt a paid feature. Person A had access to it the same moment Person B did. Not earlier or later. Another atrocious analogy.

lockstep wasnt available before. saying post-lockstep leagues are better than older ones is like saying old games are trash because they dont have newer graphics. its a very childish and basic line of thoughts. whats next ? blaming the 80s for not having publicly available internet ?

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Sure it does. There is no 'objectively best'. Hell, if I would I could just say that Onslaughts league mechanics were superior to Tempest and Invasions. What are you gonna do? Prove that I am objectively wrong? Based on what? Your subjective opinion? The fact that both these leagues had more sophisticated league modifiers? And who says that this is objectively better?

Im not going to prove anything. you're entitled to your opinion. just like my friend in russia is entitled to his opinion stalin was the best ruler in the countrys history, and it's because his ancestors had the most fun under his rule.