[3.3] Gilded Cage's Comprehensive Guide to Maps
" Hi there, do you have a source for this comment? If T12+ are not sustainable how is it possible for people to have excess T13+ for sale on standard? I would like a clear message from GGG commenting on the sustainability of High Tier (12+)maps. Is this possible for a solo player based on current game design? Disclaimer: I was once able to grow my map pool into T12+ maps by rolling 100+Quantity, 30% pack size, 3 vaal fragments and rolling ambush with + magic monsters, but now that this isn't possible (magic monster nerf) how can a solo player sustain access to this content? thanks!! Last edited by Hamdrew on Jan 3, 2016, 8:51:46 PM
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In case somebody will read this page 5 post, my two cents about maps:
1) Rolling maps. Disclaimer: my experience comes from Standard (a LOT of mapping in Standard). Temp league economy is probably quite different. Also, I solo only. You don't alch maps. It costs way too much currency and for some reason the results aren't there. Like... I don't udnerstand it, but the well roled chaos spammed maps seems to be underwhelming as far as returns are concerned. And it gets expensive as hell. Tier 1-7: run it white, no chisels. Especially tiers 1-3 can be purchased at about 1-2 alt per map, not to mention maps rain in low tiers. Tier 8-9: I prefer to run a select few, such as Gorge, Dry Penis or Residence and vendor the ones I dont do for T9-10 maps. Even if your character is OK with running Dark Forest, at certain point the xp gain is not worth it and then you get Gorge, which is like... Always worth it. Chisel and run blue with packs and/or magics. T10: If you somehow struggle to make your transition from T8-9 to T10, buy a base of like 8 T10 maps. They cost 4-5c each. Still efficient to run chiseled and blue. T11-12: So here is where I start Regaling my blues. I still don't like investing too much into T12, just run 11s and 12s and they will eventually give you a T13. T13-15: So here is where chaos spam actually becomes cheaper than the maps themselves. It is one option, most of people do this, but my experience with it is not good at all. Just Regal your well rolled blue map and Vaal it. Sure, it can brick into something you cannot do, in case of which you can either trade it, sell it or save for different character. But if you (can) optimize your character to deal with mods like -60% regen or reflect, the chances are not that high. And getting unID is just INSANE. I can't prove this, but it really seems like getting quantity without the rarity boost give better returns somehow. Also, don't Vaal maps with bosses which can turn badly easily. I really don't mind doing Excavation bosses, but I need to have control over their mods. So Vaal only bosses you can kill even with Twinned or GMP, stuff like that. For these maps, use all 3 sac frags. Its a ton of IIQ for 3 chaos. Sell Cores, you probably cannot FC it. And it gives same xp as Conservatory even if you can. Thanks to this I've been able to establish a nice base of T13 maps with regular T14 drops and some occasional T15s EVEN with some bricked Vaals here and there. ______________________________________________________________________________ 2) Random bits about few of the mid-high tier boss fights: Volcano: This fight is so hilariously overrated. Unless your DPS is utter shit, you are sitting there with 85%+ all res because flasks. If your DPS sucks then don't do this as you may not be fast enough for refills. Springs: She corpse exploded the corpse of the boss. Crematorium: If your build allows you to do this, grab a Rise of the Phoenix and Purity of Fire. Drop Hatred or something, just get that Purity in. Also, if you are CI/LL/3k life hybrid, ou must not get hit by the Firestorm because the stunlock is real. Overgrown Ruin: The hit of the Lightning Strike acts really weird and sometimes it fully hits even when it shouldn't. with 0% phys mitigation and 75% lightning res, this dude hits for about 3-4k, even 6k with some damage mods. Be careful. Village Ruin: I'm not sure how the fuck you do this as melee. You probably just don't. Once enraged, they hit like trucks. With 0% phys mitigation and 100% chaos res in Vulnerability map, enraged chicken hits for over 6k. Puppy hits even harder. Plus chicken has poison cloud and puppy has INSANE bleed. Never do it double boss as the first kill enrages ALL THREE of them. If you are sporting Lightning Warp and you don't have enough reduced duration and cast speed to hit the minimum cooldown, grab Flame Dash because enraged chicken will kill finish you off fast enough if you get hit by his Vaal RoA. Waterways: I trade this map for other T13s and if you are Icestorm/Firestorm, you should consider it as well. These two builds have a huge issue with Thorns and you can just instakill yourself without being able to do a whole lot about it. And given how frequently this cunt switches into statis, it is super dangerous. And if you have a lower DPS build (I'm at 2.5k Icestorm), the way this goes is: Thorns, you cannot do anything -> boss wakes up, you cast Storm, maybe get down her ES, maybe not -> Thorns, she regens ES. The only time I stepped into this map with this build, I spent 25 minutes with this boss fight alone. Excavation: As long as there is no double boss or LMP/GMP, it's piss easy for ranged characters. I tried this with my Aegis Ice Crash build and it was a no-no. Not sure what you do as melee here. Palace: With some speed bonuses he basically teleports to you and instantly oneshots you with Touch of God, so be careful about mods, especially if you have long animation lock on your attack/spell. Last edited by Darth_Silegy on Jan 4, 2016, 2:19:32 AM
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Just two things I noticed:
-Vulnerability no longer reduces stun threshold. - One thing about Unwavering (for melee builds anyway). You usually stun white mobs in a decent melee build which is massive damage reduction. Some care should be taken before leapslamming into large packs in these maps. |
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" I really have to disagree here. Alching instead of running them blue about doubles your quantity and quality, and gives still more than Alt + Regal. Alchs are cheap (about the same as Chisels which you recommend to use even earlier than Alchs) so even if you only get currency/items worth one Chaos out of the increased quantity + rarity + packsize you already got better returns. It's true that you have less control about the mods compared to running them blue but for t10- maps you'll have enough of them to leave those you can't run for other characters or trade them away. For tier 11+ the problem of the mods is the same with your method if the Regal hits a mod you can't run. Something else: it might be worth mentioning that the Academy boss is one of very few high-level bosses who can be killed 100% safe by ranged characters just by luring him to the entrance and then shooting - going out - going in waiting for tornadoes to die down - shooting etc. Takes a bit longer but still interesting that it's possible with a tier 11 boss. scroogetemplar / scroogewitch / scroogemarauder
Freezing Pulser (safe + affordable): https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1529856 |
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"Doubling your quantity" should, in a sane world, mean getting literally double the drops. Going from 30% quantity (average for blue map) to 69% quantity (average for rare map) is 30% more quantity. Not double.
Assuming you have trade available to you, you can use Alchs to buy maps straight-up, then Trans/Aug them to 30% quantity for essentially zero cost. This means that Alching a map is only worth doing if 30% of that map is worth at least 1 Alch, or in other words that map is worth at least 3.33 Alchs. Thus, assuming trade, it isn't worth it to Alch any Tier 8 or lower in Talisman SC right now; Tier 9 is where you should start (and even then you shouldn't Scour blues you find until maps are worth more than 3.33 Alchs + 3.33 Scour at Tier 11). Similar story with Chisels; isn't worth it until the white map is worth 34/35/36/37 Chisels itself (meaning if map is worth 36 Chisels you use 3 Chisels not 4). Which means not until Tier 13 (Tali SC), which can be darn close to never Chiseling ever. (Although if this became common practice the trade value of Chisels would drop, which then could make maps of tiers below 13 worth more than 34 Chisels, and so on; point being, Chisels are overvalued in relation to their practicality at the moment, so it makes more sense to trade them than use them most of the time.) I feel this all ties to one thing the opening post fails to address: the effect of map-buying on map rolling. Rolling maps for a kind of self-found sustainment is a totally different experience, because it forces the player to overroll quantity to ensure sustainment (and creating excess supply which can be sold to map buyers), while a map-buying player can just convert currency to maps at will and thus can be much more lax about using currency to roll quantity. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Jan 17, 2016, 2:56:06 PM
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" Please assume that I'm a bit stupid and tell me more in detail why 30% to 69% is only an increase of 30%...? " Unless I misunderstand you (please correct me if I do), that would only make sense if the ONLY thing that dropped from maps was other maps. Since quantity also gives you more items and currency - all of which can be worth more Alchs - that additional 39% quantity is actually worth more than only the cost of buying the maps that drop. scroogetemplar / scroogewitch / scroogemarauder
Freezing Pulser (safe + affordable): https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1529856 |
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"1.69/1.30=1.30. To use PoE mechanics terminology, 39% increased (additive) is 30% more (multiplicative) in this case. "Incorrect. I'm assuming running two 0% increased quantity maps drops as much as one 100% increased quantity map. Maps, gear, currency, everything. I guess it's also important to note that I'm assuming rolling more quantity on a map makes that map more difficult, and therefore take more time to complete. This, a player can run two 0% quantity maps in the same amount of time as one 100% quantity map. This might not always be the case, and could effect things like loot/hour. But not loot per currency spent on mapping. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Jan 17, 2016, 2:40:10 PM
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I get what you're saying now.
Buying an additional map instead of Alching is more efficient - if you can run 1.3 blue maps in the time it takes to run a yellow map. It all seems to hinge on how much more time of running the map each percent of quantity costs you. However, that's also related to how difficult the map tier in question is for you. I can do yellow tier 12 maps carefully (thus a bit slow) with my current build. But I can run through yellow tier 9 maps nearly as fast as through blue tier 9 maps (Temporal Chains notwithstanding) because those maps present not much threat to me even with more dangerous mods and I have enough damage output to kill mobs fast even with mobs like Enfeeble. This is even more true for lower-tier maps. So the very maps which you wouldn't Alch - tier 10 and below - would actually be more efficient for me to Alch with regard to loot/time. And I think that for most players time is the scarcer resource than maps below tier 10. As you said, higher-level maps should be Alched anyway. To sum it up, I guess Alching maps below tier 9 can be questionable IF ALCHING THEM WILL INCREASE THEIR DIFFCULTY/DECREASE CLEAR SPEED SUBSTANTIALLY. But characters beyond, say, level 85 should probably Alch away as much as they can. scroogetemplar / scroogewitch / scroogemarauder
Freezing Pulser (safe + affordable): https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1529856 |
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Yeah, I'm definitely not arguing for a never-ever-Alch policy, that's just nuts. I can kind of see how people get into it (they get a intuitive feel Alchs aren't so great for Tiers 8 and below, and just perpetuate that forward without retesting or rethinking) but it's just not sound policy for valuable maps.
I don't think it takes a lot to find situations where Alching your maps makes the runs about 23% slower. (1/.77=1.3) Most likely in the form of being 10% slower 80% of the time, and like 50% slower just 20% of the time when a particular map is just being a bitch. You'll also run into Temporal Chains about 1/13 maps instead of 1/29, and it'll be harder to reroll out of (edit: although that is only about 2% slower overall as a hard value, unless it leads to increased caution/kiting/etc). But in any case, this only even applies when things are still relatively close to that 3.33 Alch threshold, so if you Alch your Tier 8 I wouldn't press the issue. Tier 7 is a long shot, and I disagree with it, but it's still not quite crazy crazy. I think it's pretty safe to say Tier 6 and below should never get Alch'd under any circumstance, even self-found (you need those Alchs for later!) so I feel pretty compelled to disagree strongly with the OP on the Tier 6 Alch thing, and Tier 7 too while I'm at it. And the Chiseling advice is just bad. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Jan 17, 2016, 4:14:44 PM
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Thank you so much for this guide. I have been using this like crazy at it is my first time through the maps. The one thing I reference a lot is the experience penalty chart. I updated the one you have to include tier 14 and 15 as well as put the map tiers above the map level for quicker look up. Here is the link : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QpJJRuCnp1SeOUchW0EUFGJKOWKA6vGO0Lv42Y4HCJw/edit?usp=sharing
The other thing that would be nice is a spoiler of all maps and their tier for Zana quests as I being new dont have them memorized and have to expand every tier currently to do a ctrl+f to find the map to read about it. Something like this would work:
Spoiler
Tier 1 Tropical Island [Difficulty 2/10 | Clearing Ability 9/10] Dunes [Difficulty 5/10 | Clearing Ability 8/10] Pit [Difficulty 5/10 | Clearing Ability 7/10] Crypt [Difficulty 2/10 | Clearing Ability 4/10] Grotto [Difficulty 2/10 | Clearing Ability 4/10] Desert [Difficulty 9/10 | Clearing Ability 7/10] Dungeon [Difficulty 7/10 | Clearing Ability 1/10] Tier 2 Mountain Ledge [Difficulty 2/10 | Clearing Ability 10/10] Wharf [Difficulty 5/10 | Clearing Ability 8/10] Channel [Difficulty 6/10 | Clearing Ability 7/10] Sewer [Difficulty 3/10 | Clearing Ability 6/10] Thicket [Difficulty 5/10 | Clearing Ability 6/10] Cemetery [Difficulty 3/10 | Clearing Ability 5/10] Arcade [Difficulty 3/10 | Clearing Ability 3/10] Tier 3 Reef [Difficulty 3/10 | Clearing Ability 8/10] Spider Lair [Difficulty 4/10 | Clearing Ability 7/10] Mud Geyser [Difficulty 3/10 | Clearing Ability 6/10] Vaal Pyramid [Difficulty 1/10 | Clearing Ability 3/10] Ghetto [Difficulty 6/10 | Clearing Ability 5/10] Quarry [Difficulty 7/10 | Clearing Ability 5/10] Museum [Difficulty 9/10 | Clearing Ability 5/10] Tier 4 Shore [Difficulty 4/10 | Clearing Ability 8/10] Promenade [Difficulty 7/10 | Clearing Ability 8/10] Spider Forest [Difficulty 5/10 | Clearing Ability 7/10] Overgrown Shrine [Difficulty 5/10 | Clearing Ability 6/10] Arena [Difficulty 5/10 | Clearing Ability 4/10] Tunnel [Difficulty 1/10 | Clearing Ability 2/10] Phantasmagoria [Difficulty 9/10 | Clearing Ability 9/10] Tier 5 Pier [Difficulty 2/10 | Clearing Ability 8/10] Underground Sea [Difficulty 3/10 | Clearing Ability 8/10] Coves [Difficulty 4/10 | Clearing Ability 7/10] Bog [Difficulty 3/10 | Clearing Ability 5/10] Villa [Difficulty 7/10 | Clearing Ability 4/10] Graveyard [Difficulty 8/10 | Clearing Ability 6/10] Tier 6 Strand [Difficulty 2/10 | Clearing Ability 10/10] Dry Woods [Difficulty 2/10 | Clearing Ability 7/10] Arachnid Nest [Difficulty 4/10 | Clearing Ability 6/10] Catacomb [Difficulty 2/10 | Clearing Ability 4/10] Colonnade [Difficulty 7/10 | Clearing Ability 6/10] Temple [Difficulty 8/10 | Clearing Ability 4/10] Tier 7 Waste Pool [Difficulty 3/10 | Clearing Ability 6/10] Mine [Difficulty 3/10 | Clearing Ability 1/10] Jungle Valley [Difficulty 8/10 | Clearing Ability 7/10] Terrace [Difficulty 7/10 | Clearing Ability 2/10] Torture Chamber [Difficulty 9/10 | Clearing Ability 2/10] Tier 8 Canyon [Difficulty 4/10 | Clearing Ability 9/10] Dry Peninsula [Difficulty 5/10 | Clearing Ability 8/10] Dark Forest [Difficulty 6/10 | Clearing Ability 5/10] Cells [Difficulty 2/10 | Clearing Ability 2/10] Orchard [Difficulty 9/10 | Clearing Ability 6/10] Tier 9 Gorge [Difficulty 2/10 | Clearing Ability 10/10] Arid Lake [Difficulty 4/10 | Clearing Ability 8/10] Underground River [Difficulty 2/10 | Clearing Ability 2/10] Residence [Difficulty 7/10 | Clearing Ability 5/10] Malformation [Difficulty 9/10 | Clearing Ability 7/10] Tier 10 Plateau [Difficulty 4/10 | Clearing Ability 9/10] Volcano [Difficulty 6/10 | Clearing Ability 7/10] Bazaar [Difficulty 3/10 | Clearing Ability 4/10] Necropolis [Difficulty 4/10 | Clearing Ability 3/10] Tier 11 Precinct [Difficulty 5/10 | Clearing Ability 7/10] Springs [Difficulty 4/10 | Clearing Ability 6/10] Academy [Difficulty 7/10 | Clearing Ability 5/10] Crematorium [Difficulty 9/10 | Clearing Ability 3/10] Tier 12 Shipyard [Difficulty 2/10 | Clearing Ability 6/10] Overgrown Ruin [Difficulty 3/10 | Clearing Ability 5/10] Arsenal [Difficulty 3/10 | Clearing Ability 4/10] Village Ruin [Difficulty 9/10 | Clearing Ability 8/10] Tier 13 Wasteland [Difficulty 4/10 | Clearing Ability 8/10] Waterways [Difficulty 5/10 | Clearing Ability 7/10] Courtyard [Difficulty 7/10 | Clearing Ability 6/10] Excavation [Difficulty 8/10 | Clearing Ability 5/10] Tier 14 Conservatory [Difficulty 5/10 | Clearing Ability 4/10] Shrine [Difficulty 8/10 | Clearing Ability 5/10] Palace [Difficulty 9/10 | Clearing Ability 6/10] Tier 15 Colosseum [Difficulty 8/10 | Clearing Ability 8/10] Abyss [Difficulty 5/10 | Clearing Ability 7/10] Core [Difficulty 10/10 | Clearing Ability 3/10] Then I can just go the the correct tier after searching this. |
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