Thanks GGG for finally reworking Bandit-system!

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goetzjam wrote:

I feel like anyone that supports this idea is one of those people that move things from one place to another, but never really puts anything away.

i don't know whats wrong with you. why insult ppl?

this is a very cool and consistent way of making the bandit quests more available.

and for the rewards. i'd realy like to know how many characters get respeced except for the all ears achievement. i rly doubt that many are doing this. i would rather level a new toon.

on the other hand there is nothing in the game that gives you a hint that you could ever change the rewards. you either know it or not. i bet that half of the playerbase dont even know about this.

maybe they could also change the lore behind it a bit.

like after you chose to help a bandit he/she will give you a broken gem, they think is worthless, but tell you it is the most valuable thing in wreaclast. you show this gem eramir and in fact he can restore the long lost power within.
instead of they rly give you something very powerfull they know of (the apex).
a bandit who doesn't try to screw you? havent seen that ...

"

Ruefl2x wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

I feel like anyone that supports this idea is one of those people that move things from one place to another, but never really puts anything away.

i don't know whats wrong with you. why insult ppl?

this is a very cool and consistent way of making the bandit quests more available.

and for the rewards. i'd realy like to know how many characters get respeced except for the all ears achievement. i rly doubt that many are doing this. i would rather level a new toon.

on the other hand there is nothing in the game that gives you a hint that you could ever change the rewards. you either know it or not. i bet that half of the playerbase dont even know about this.

maybe they could also change the lore behind it a bit.

like after you chose to help a bandit he/she will give you a broken gem, they think is worthless, but tell you it is the most valuable thing in wreaclast. you show this gem eramir and in fact he can restore the long lost power within.
instead of they rly give you something very powerfull they know of (the apex).
a bandit who doesn't try to screw you? havent seen that ...

How exactly is that an insult? It wasn't intended to be one, but rather a "real world" explanation of a scenario they are essentially "supporting" in the game.


More available, by this you mean cheaper. I don't care if they add it if it cost the same, but using "more available" really just means cheaper in this case. If they wanted to add a thing next to your character start that told you your "benefits" from bandits, that is COMPLETELY different then the suggested idea.


Scion is extremely popular after the changes to her start tree (dem jewels) Lots of people could level scions as something and completely change a playstyle fairly easily if the cost was cheaper. You might respec characters and relevel, but a lot of HC players would rather respec then relevel.


1/2 the playerbase won't read the forums either or google their "problem" or whatever. Using lack of information to support an idea in this case is just meh. Like I said the information is available for those that ask and google knows pretty much everything these days now.

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goetzjam wrote:

Bandits typically are "more efficient" at what they provide vs what a single skill point will give you. Because of that alone the cost to change should ALWAYS be more then 1 regret orb.

By that logic it should take multiple Regrets to get a Jewel out of its slot again.

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Not only that but the current cost prevent people from "abusing" at least without significant cost, the ability to change from 1 build to another.

What is "abusive" about it? The bandit rewards are only marginally more effective than a single passive point. After a reset you can completely respec anyway, the bandit rewards are nothing more than nuances behind a disproportional pay-wall. Making them cheaper would be consistent, LOGICAL and more intuitive.

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Furthermore jewels are\were introduced as a fully useable and socketable anywhere thing, this just complicates the jewel system and utilizes something that isn't necessary in this form.

Yes. So? Doesn't mean you can't expand upon the general concept and utilize it for QoL improvements. The nebulous bandit rewards, that are cluttered behind quest logs, vendor recipes and unfair PvP are an artifact.

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passives tells you what you have, moving or creating jewels for them isn't necessary and is subpar when you honestly think about it.

You have to check your quest log. Click A2N, scroll quests, search for bandit quest, click to read. Repeat for every difficulty. My solution however is as simple as opening the passive tree and mousing over your bandit jewels.

Just because you are used to/familiar with inconvenient, ancient UI, doesn't mean it is better. On the contrary. When it comes to UI, less clicks/actions/steps is better. Period.

"

Until you realize that all this actually does is just move \passives onto the tree and creates this convoluted sceario with players trying to socket bandit rewards into other places and failing or failing to socket such rewards to begin with. This solution isn't more "simplistic" its just far cheaper.

Only if they can't read the descriptions which tell them exactly what do to/how it works. And fail to put 1 and 1 together.
"Bandit jewel slots in my skill tree? Can only be used with bandit jewels? Well, guess I gotta wait until I get one of those"
"Oh, I got an item that reads 'bandit jewel' so I can socket it here. It even told me in the quest description how it works."
If you cannot deduce something like this, what are you even doing in this game? On one hand you say something like THAT would confuse people and on the other you say "What's the big deal googling a vendor recipe that isn't even mentioned ANYWHERE IN THE ENTIRE GAME?"


All your arguments come to nothing, you even contradict yourself at times. Seems like you are just a guy screaming "NO! It always was like that! I don't like progress or improvement! Don't take me out of my comfort zone!"

All you did was saying "That's not better! The current system is perfect!" "Okay ... why though?" "Because it's better the way it is now!" "But why?" "Because this suggestion is worse!" "Again, why?" "EVERYONE WHO LIKES THIS IS A DUMMY!"

This isn't even a discussion.

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By that logic it should take multiple Regrets to get a Jewel out of its slot again.

You are comparing 2 different things, jewels which were designed to be a flexible part of the tree to something like a bandit reward, which was designed to be a perm bonus for a character. I actually would have no issues if it took regrets to take jewels out, however the design of using unqiue jewels to level with and replace with good rares later seems something GGG wanted to do, by design.

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What is "abusive" about it? The bandit rewards are only marginally more effective than a single passive point. After a reset you can completely respec anyway, the bandit rewards are nothing more than nuances behind a disproportional pay-wall. Making them cheaper would be consistent, LOGICAL and more intuitive.

You can respec a tree, but your bandit rewards only change IF YOU PAY. The tree reset only affects non temp league characters, so what 1/2 the community gets a free tree respec every 4-5 months, when GGG also makes tree changes, I don't see how this is comparable.

Bandit rewards weren't designed to be "flexiable" they only added the way to change it because people were "upset" that they had no option at all, but reducing the cost you essentially would be cheaping the choice GGG\game gives you when doing it the first time. You compare it to a "marginally" better life node because your comparing it to 1-2 skill points, when all actually its cost to change makes it worth more.

Making it cheaper has nothing to do with consistency. You helped the bandits or killed the bandits, the fact you can change it at all is "stupid" Are you time traveling back to change who you killed? Don't use logic as an argument if it isn't logical.


This isn't a QoL improvement suggestion. A QoL improvement is something that DOESNT CHANGE THE WAY THE GAME FUNCTIONS or if it does, IT DOESNT CHANGE BALANCE. Something like telling you what choices you made next to it, for example would be QoL, GGG adding lore\explanation on how to change it would be QoL, suggesting a change in cost, is not.

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All your arguments come to nothing, you even contradict yourself at times. Seems like you are just a guy screaming "NO! It always was like that! I don't like progress or improvement! Don't take me out of my comfort zone!"

All you did was saying "That's not better! The current system is perfect!" "Okay ... why though?" "Because it's better the way it is now!" "But why?" "Because this suggestion is worse!" "Again, why?" "EVERYONE WHO LIKES THIS IS A DUMMY!"

This isn't even a discussion.

Contradicted myself, yet you point to no instance in which I did. This type of response is an example of an "OP" that just bashes anyone that disagrees with them, simply because I am disagreeing.

The current system isn't perfect, like I said don't mask this "cheaper" cost behind a QoL improvement and don't think for a second there isn't a better solution out there.

Your suggestion involves jewels instead of "perm" character benefits, you have no idea how "difficult" this would be to change. This is a prime example of moving something from one place to another, it SOLVES LITERALLY NOTHING with this part of it.

If your suggestion was, GGG we need to know what bandits\rewards we took, can we add something on the passive tree near our character, that should be a much easier thing and isn't as complicated as adding "unnecessary" jewels, which just adds more confusion and things players confuse or miss out on.

Right now players help oak and normal AND IMMEDIATELY get that life, if they get the jewel and never or don't socket it until later, you actually hurt those players.


Your suggestion ultimately is fine on paper, aside from the cost and whatever additional time it would take to do this vs a far more simplistic approach, which is ultimately why I disapprove. In the future, don't mask a "suggestion" for price reduction behind the mask of QoL, it looks really bad.

I think the current costs to respec bandits is fine. I really like that you could open a tree and see the bandit rewards integrated. It even leaves open the possibility of future alternate rewards like vendor recipes that change one of the bandit jewels.

Edit: an example of a vendor recipe might be taking the 10 all resist jewel and turn it into a 30 one resist jewel. I know i often end up really heavy in one resist and short in another.

"

mark1030 wrote:

I think the current costs to respec bandits is fine. I really like that you could open a tree and see the bandit rewards integrated. It even leaves open the possibility of future alternate rewards like vendor recipes that change one of the bandit jewels.

Edit: an example of a vendor recipe might be taking the 10 all resist jewel and turn it into a 30 one resist jewel. I know i often end up really heavy in one resist and short in another.

I don't think that the rewards from bandits should be that flexible, they were initially designed to be perm choices you made for your character, so that you planned a build ahead of time or "suffered"

The passive tree, gear and jewels provide enough flexibility.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

mark1030 wrote:

I think the current costs to respec bandits is fine. I really like that you could open a tree and see the bandit rewards integrated. It even leaves open the possibility of future alternate rewards like vendor recipes that change one of the bandit jewels.

Edit: an example of a vendor recipe might be taking the 10 all resist jewel and turn it into a 30 one resist jewel. I know i often end up really heavy in one resist and short in another.

I don't think that the rewards from bandits should be that flexible, they were initially designed to be perm choices you made for your character, so that you planned a build ahead of time or "suffered"

The passive tree, gear and jewels provide enough flexibility.

Then make the recipe expensive like changing a bandit reward. A lot of things were designed when the game had 2 acts and 50 fewer skill gems. Just because something was designed one way doesn't mean it can't evolve with the rest of the game.

"

goetzjam wrote:

You are comparing 2 different things, jewels which were designed to be a flexible part of the tree to something like a bandit reward, which was designed to be a perm bonus for a character. I actually would have no issues if it took regrets to take jewels out, however the design of using unqiue jewels to level with and replace with good rares later seems something GGG wanted to do, by design.

So? You can adjust designs. The bandit reward mechanic is really, REALLY old and convoluted. Random PvP, that kicks you out of HC if you don't know any better, invisible stats where you need to inconveniently click through all the quest logs to see them, changing them requires you to use a vendor recipe that isn't mentioned anywhere in the entire game, and, for some random reason, changing them is 20x as expensive as a regular skill point even though the bandit rewards are only 1.5x - 2x as strong at best.

There is no clarity, no consistency.

"

You can respec a tree, but your bandit rewards only change IF YOU PAY. The tree reset only affects non temp league characters, so what 1/2 the community gets a free tree respec every 4-5 months, when GGG also makes tree changes, I don't see how this is comparable.

What exactly is the point here? Non-temp and temp characters share the same time-window for resets. When the reset happens the temp characters become perm characters, so why even differentiate here? Temp characters are nothing more than new characters.

"

Bandit rewards weren't designed to be "flexiable" they only added the way to change it because people were "upset" that they had no option at all, but reducing the cost you essentially would be cheaping the choice GGG\game gives you when doing it the first time. You compare it to a "marginally" better life node because your comparing it to 1-2 skill points, when all actually its cost to change makes it worth more.

You can't just take two similar things, slap a disproportionate price tag on one of them and say "This is now worth more!" It isn't. It's the same thing and you saying it's different won't make it so.

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Making it cheaper has nothing to do with consistency. You helped the bandits or killed the bandits, the fact you can change it at all is "stupid" Are you time traveling back to change who you killed? Don't use logic as an argument if it isn't logical.

What are you even arguing here? You are talking about lore-consistency, while I am talking about gameplay-consistency. Those are two different things. You are also playing the same old crap three times when you level up a char. You can also fight bosses again. Those aren't logical either. From a LORE perspective! Lore =/= gameplay.

And from a gameplay perspective it would DEFINITELY be more consistent and logical if bandit rewards where as expensive as regular skill points if you want to change them, as they have the same power.

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This isn't a QoL improvement suggestion. A QoL improvement is something that DOESNT CHANGE THE WAY THE GAME FUNCTIONS or if it does, IT DOESNT CHANGE BALANCE. Something like telling you what choices you made next to it, for example would be QoL, GGG adding lore\explanation on how to change it would be QoL, suggesting a change in cost, is not.

It is a QoL improvement AND a rework. An overhaul because the current system is by no means optimal. You are completely hung up on the price, stomping with your foot "It NEEDS to be this expensive! It NEEDS to be!" and your only argument as to why is that it was implemented like this years ago.

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Contradicted myself, yet you point to no instance in which I did. This type of response is an example of an "OP" that just bashes anyone that disagrees with them, simply because I am disagreeing.

You seem to have skipped the sentence exactly before that one. You suggested that a jewel based bandit-reward system would confuse players, even though it would actually have clear description in-game, while later arguing that players should be forced to google how the messy current bandit system actually works. You are basically saying "This new system would be bad because it would confuse players (even though everything would be explained in-game)" and later "The current system is fine even though people have to research pretty much everything about it outside of the game"
Can you not see how those two statements completely contradict one another and present two entirely different view-points?

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Your suggestion involves jewels instead of "perm" character benefits, you have no idea how "difficult" this would be to change. This is a prime example of moving something from one place to another, it SOLVES LITERALLY NOTHING with this part of it.

Neither do you. The stats are ON your character anyway. It might just be the case that it is really easy to convert them from hidden stats into a jewel that can be put in and out of the skill tree. Just like Jewels work. Do it hand in hand with a reset.

My suggestion solves what I listed in the OP and all the "problems" and "arguments" you came up with amount to nothing.

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Right now players help oak and normal AND IMMEDIATELY get that life, if they get the jewel and never or don't socket it until later, you actually hurt those players.

Yeah, amazing. Right now they get the life without even getting told they have it. A new player finishes the quest and is left wondering "Uhm ... did my HP change now? Do I have to do something to get it? Or did it already count?" until they dig through the quest log.

While, guess what, something similar is already in the game! The Book of Skill from Eramir! Convenient, obvious, consistent and all that good stuff! You get the item, you read the description, you do what it says and nothing is convoluted. My suggestion takes that concept and applies it to ALL the different rewards as well. Because it would be CON-SIST-ENT.

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Your suggestion ultimately is fine on paper, aside from the cost and whatever additional time it would take to do this vs a far more simplistic approach, which is ultimately why I disapprove. In the future, don't mask a "suggestion" for price reduction behind the mask of QoL, it looks really bad.

Again only getting hung up on the price. For what? You gave not a single valid argument why it SHOULD be like that. It was designed like that. Well, obviously it was. But it is inconsistent design as it is now. And that is bad.

All you ever said here was "Always was like this, don't change, needs to be expensive" without bringing up any arguments. At all. Just beating around the bush, hiding behind non-statements.

Bring some POINTS! Bring some REASONS! Bring some EXPLANATION! Answer the simple question "Why?". You wrote so much and yet you wrote nothing.

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Emphasy wrote:

Well the jewel part is interesting.

I actually would change the quest to always side with a bandit and remove the option to kill all. The quest would always give a skillpoint and open the option to skill the bandit slot for that difficulty. This would allow easier switching between +1 skillpoint and the bonus you have chosen, for changing to another bonus you would still have to pay the price for the change book, but one regret would be enough to switch to +1 skillpoint.

This is a fantastic idea.

GGG hire this guy, he has better ideas than your designers.