Analysis of hybrid vs single stat armors at max level

Lets start with chest armor:

lvl 60 Str armor (421 AR)
lvl 60 Str/Int armor (210 AR / 69 ES)
lvl 60 Str/Dex armor (191 AR / 191 EV)
lvl 60 Int armor (125 ES)
lvl 60 Dex/Int armor (191 EV / 61 ES)
lvl 60 Dex armor (382 EV)

There are 6 lvl 60 chest armors, one for each stat and one for each hybrid, but why do Dex items provide less bonuses than Str items. It's like any armor that has dex on it, has its values reduced by about 10%

If you're paying extra for Evasion isn't the capstone that turns EV into AR really bad?



Next is boots:
Going from highest to lowest

lvl 53 Dex/Int boots (68 EV / 22 ES)
lvl 49 Dex boots (126 EV)
lvl 47 Str boots (120 AR)
lvl 43 Int boots (36 ES)
lvl 41 Str/Dex boots (53 AR / 53 EV)
lvl 39 Str/Int boots (50 AR / 17 ES)

Boots are kinda sad if you're a Str hybrid but overall not too bad.


Gloves:

lvl 59 Int gloves (49 ES)
lvl 53 Str gloves (136 AV)
lvl 48 Str/Int gloves (62 AR / 20 ES)
lvl 47 Dex gloves (120 EV)
lvl 45 Dex/Int gloves (58 EV / 19 ES)
lvl 39 Str/Dex gloves (50 AR / 50 EV)

Same as the boots, although the loser here is any Dex hybrid.


Helmets:

lvl 55 Dex/Int helm (105 EV / 34 ES)
lvl 53 Str helm (203 AR)
lvl 52 Int helm (65 ES)
lvl 50 Str/Dex helm (96 AR / 96 EV)
lvl 46 Dex/Int helm (88 EV / 29 ES)
lvl 44 Str/Int helm (85 AR / 28 ES)
lvl 43 Dex helm (166 EV)

Why are there two Dex/Int items before you get to either the Str/Int or Dex item?


Shields:

lvl 60 Str/Dex shield (153 AR / 153 EV)
lvl 58 Str shield (562 AR)
lvl 57 Int shield (95 ES)
lvl 56 Dex shield (515 EV)
lvl 50 Dex/Int shield (128 EV / 42 ES)
lvl 49 Str/Int shield (126 AV / 41 ES)

Whoa, straight Str and straight Dex shields are insane. In other cases (adjusting for level) the Str/Dex items provide between ~90%-100% of the total points provided by single stat items. I think both the Str shield and the Dex shield provide way too many points.

As a note there may be other factors regarding the shields I'm unaware of such as block chance and recovery% but it'll still be hard to compete with close to double the value presented by the Str & Dex single stat shields.


Lets look at the total stats for somebody equipping all of the max level items of each type.

Str/Dex (543 AR / 543 Dex) [1086 total]

Str (1442)

Str/Int (533 AR / 175 ES) [Not sure how to value ES]

Int (370 ES)

Int/Dex (533 EV / 173 ES) [You only lose 2 points of ES going Dex/Int instead of Str/Int. This is probably close enough to be balanced]

Dex (1309 EV)

I was under the impression that 1 point of armor = 1 point of dex. If that's true then why are there such noticeable discrepancies? How exactly does ES relate to armor and evasion? Is it a 2:1, 3:1 ratio? Is 1 point ES = 1 point HP? If so, how is health valued in comparison to the armor and evasion? This is quite confusing. If we had clear ratios then it could potentially makes sense why you need more armor than dex. I would love to have this info clarified.

the biggest issue is tat the most prevalent item mod on equipment is increased evasion/armor/energyshield PERCENTAGE. The problem with that, is that the mod is only 50% as effective (or less in cases like the shields) on hybrid equipment (int-dex,dex-str,str-int) as it would be on a pure str/int/dex piece of equipment.

This should have been fixed LONG AGO. It's been holding back this type of equipment from being effective for AGES. It's such a basic thing, I have absolutely no idea why it has not yet been implemented.

To solve the issue, %ES/Ar/Ev modifiers should either be:
— Removed from the game entirely, with the replacements being the +ES/Ar/Ev which exist already.
— Doubled in values when appearing on hybrid armors.


Both quite simply solve the problem — a big problem that's been ignored for a very long time.

2h Schwert


2h Mace


2h Axt


Stab


1h Mace


1h Axt


1h Schwert


Klaue


Bogen


Wand


Dolch


Helm


Handschuhe

Rüstung


Schuhe


Schild


Köcher


Amulett


Ring


Gürtel

Nice thread, good work collecting up this information. It's interesting to see.

"

Xapti wrote:

To solve the issue, %ES/Ar/Ev modifiers should either be:
— Removed from the game entirely, with the replacements being the +ES/Ar/Ev which exist already.
— Doubled in values when appearing on hybrid armors.

I personally think the best solution is to just make a new line of item modifiers specifically tailored for these hybrid armors.

For example, take a piece of Str/Int armor (i.e. AR/ES). Set the item rules so it is no longer possible for +armor or +energy shield modifiers to appear on these items. Instead, replace this with a different modifier that does BOTH giving +armor AND +energy shield. Naturally, these new lines of modifiers should only appear on the appropriate hybrid armors, just as the old single +ES(%) / +AR(%) / +EV(%) should only apply to the relevant non-hybrid armors.

This way you do away with any possible confusion with item mods behaving differently depending on which item they appear on. Also, it should make it easier on the part of the devs to adjust the numbers and balance this as well.

As for removing them (+ES/+AR/+EV) entirely, I think that's a VERY bad idea. You don't want to take away the cool bonuses and fancy words on items. People like fancy items. Rare items are a large part of what keep people playing this game long after they've beaten all the acts. You don't want to screw that one up.

Thanks for the responses so far guys. I knew there was an imbalance issue with the %gains and the hybrid armor but after 9.4 I was noticing issues with the initial values as well.

The two biggest bits that jump out at me are the gains for single stat Str or Dex shields is completely off the charts and that any chest armor with dex just got 10% less.

The % thing would be nice if there was just a base defensive values + that came with a different name depending on what type of item it came on (I suppose that would be a slight buff the the few tri stat pieces around but that seems fine)

Regarding %upgrades vs straight +upgrades you actually need to keep both of these things. The reason for this is because of what the developers are calling granularity which is to say when you are relatively low level, and the numbers are relatively small, a percentage gain is likely to end up giving little or no bonus, but at higher levels, percentage upgrades are highly desirable since they eventually far outstrip any straight additive numbers.

The thing is to just balance this so the hybrid armors aren't getting the short end of the stick by being stuck with a bonus that only improves HALF their numbers. And that's actually simple enough by moving things around a little.

Str based armor (AR)
+AR or %AR mods

Str/Dex based armor (AR+EV)
+AR/EV or %AR/EV mods

Str/Int based armor (AR+ES)
+AR/ES or %AR/ES mods

etc. etc. etc.

The idea is to split it off so each of the six (seven?) armor categories gets assigned a different set of modifiers, that at the same time, are clear and concise in what they do and are not unfair to any particular class and or stat combinations. And that possibly even includes the elusive and mysterious seventh armor category of tri-stat armors.

I really think this is the cleanest solution to this issue, and from the devs standpoint I think it is also possibly the easiest to manage for balance in the long run since they'll have greater control to tweak precisely what needs balancing be it armor, shields or evasion.

"

DoctorZuber wrote:

As for removing them (+ES/+AR/+EV) entirely, I think that's a VERY bad idea. You don't want to take away the cool bonuses and fancy words on items. People like fancy items. Rare items are a large part of what keep people playing this game long after they've beaten all the acts. You don't want to screw that one up.

I think you confused removing the "+x" mods with removing the "increased by x%" mods. I was only talking about removing one — which doesn't detract from fancy items with names, or rares, or anything else about your argument.

"

DoctorZuber wrote:

Regarding %upgrades vs straight +upgrades you actually need to keep both of these things. The reason for this is because of what the developers are calling granularity which is to say when you are relatively low level, and the numbers are relatively small, a percentage gain is likely to end up giving little or no bonus, but at higher levels, percentage upgrades are highly desirable since they eventually far outstrip any straight additive numbers.

Not true. +x mods can work because of the existing mechanic in the game of mod tiers — items of low level can only get low tier mods, but higher ones can get high tier mods — this way you don't currently see low level (item level, including item tier) pieces of equipment with 7 armor that have +100 armor on them.

That all said, I have no issue with alternative solutions, as long as they work well, and especially if they are simple.

A mod like "increased defense value %", is a really simple approach that could work well. The only issue with it, is it isn't the most clear to a player ("defense? this item doesn't have any defense attribute. Does it increase the resistances on the item? that's kinda like defence"), but I'd say it's clear enough.

I must say, I completely agree with Xapti on everything he's said. This seems like a simple issue that should have been fixed ages ago.

If it's necessary to keep both mod types +x and +x%, then the best solution would be to implement the +x% defense variation, or just outright increase the mod values on hybrid armors.

I'd still like to know the exact ratio between Armor:Evasion:ES. I don't fully understand why pure Str items end up with a higher total in defense points.

"

Xapti wrote:

"

DoctorZuber wrote:

Regarding %upgrades vs straight +upgrades you actually need to keep both of these things.

Not true. +x mods can work because of the existing mechanic in the game of mod tiers

While what you say could technically be done, the flexibility of %mods are preferable in a lot of ways. with a %mod if you have an exceptionally high number in something that %mod naturally scales to become all that much more powerful in your hands. But in the hands of other classes, that mod will be much less powerful, or even of no value whatsoever. %mods quite naturally scale to the strengths of a class that uses them.

Now if you do away with that and try to scale the game with purely +mods there are hazards to that.

Take a marauder for example. A prime mod for marauders is the %lifeleech ability which directly scales with physical damage. This item is great for a marauder, possibly good for some other classes as well but utterly worthless for most witches since they tend to favor spells over physical attacks and therefore would gain little benefit from this type of item.

Now if you take that away and leave only the +lifeonhit effects, that item loses a good deal of it's strength. It no longer naturally scales to fit appropriate builds, but is now equally powerful in the hands of any character that has the stats necessary to equip it. Now the only way to balance that item, is with stat requirements, and that, simply isn't going to be enough.

And worse, this item typically lives on belts that have no stat requirements. What are you going to do? re-balance belts so they require strength? How much Strength is that going to have to be to discourage inappropriate classes from using this enchantment?

And that's just one item mod. There are many many others that would have to be completely redesigned and re-balanced to allow for the removal of %mods. Perhaps it could be done if you truly wanted to spend that much effort into such a project.

But why would you want to?