Analysis of hybrid vs single stat armors at max level

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DoctorZuber wrote:

So basically with the percentage based combo armor nodes you're not worried that any one node would be overpowered, you're just worried that it's going to inflate the raw number of armor nodes available on the tree.

The concern is that +% armor passive nodes are twice as valuable to characters pursuing armor than those pursuing hybrid armor/ES or armor/evasion builds.

Rather than putting in hybrid nodes (+% armor and ES), I was suggesting that they use a node for the core armor types which had no percentage basis and thus is roughly equal for any build style.

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Britannicus wrote:

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DoctorZuber wrote:

So basically with the percentage based combo armor nodes you're not worried that any one node would be overpowered, you're just worried that it's going to inflate the raw number of armor nodes available on the tree.

The concern is that +% armor passive nodes are twice as valuable to characters pursuing armor than those pursuing hybrid armor

Humm . . . yea, I guess that's still true. This problem is really hurting mah poor brain.

And with your additive version, I see a different set of issues.

To some degree this can still be balanced by location. But double strength, yea, that's tough to handle.

The extreme version would be to actually isolate a chain in the tree where it's impossible for neighbors to reach, but I suspect that is an undesirable option as well.

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DoctorZuber wrote:

I still don't like it.

With the numbers you use for an example, it's way too weak for a high level character. If you adjust these numbers to compensate for that, it becomes way too powerful for a low level character, which is even worse.

The numbers I posted were purely hypothetical. I was just explaining my suggestion with a numerical example.

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Britannicus wrote:

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DoctorZuber wrote:

I still don't like it.

With the numbers you use for an example, it's way too weak for a high level character. If you adjust these numbers to compensate for that, it becomes way too powerful for a low level character, which is even worse.

The numbers I posted were purely hypothetical. I was just explaining my suggestion with a numerical example.

Yes, I understand that they are theoretical numbers.

The problem isn't the numbers. The problem is that larger or small, I see no practical way to balance them.

Armor doesn't scale in an easy linear way. And if you do write a formula that is balanced it fails again because now it's a formula. To the average user, it's unreadable.

I've got a thought. The passive tree side of this might be easier to scale if we rescale the hybrid armor to some degree.

My standard disclaimer, all numbers represented here are made up numbers simply to illustrate a concept.

The problem we're having with balance the passive tree here is basically that we currently have a 1/2 ratio on all the hybrid armors.

300 AR
150 AR 150 EV
150 AR 75 ES

What if we change that ratio to 2/3 instead?

300 AR
200 AR 200 EV
200 AR 100 ES

At the same time, we flip this ratio and apply this to the percentages in the passive tree. So now a marauder can get a +9% AR, but the Swashbuckler only gets a +6% AR/EV modifier.

327 AR
212 AR 212 EV
212 AR 106 ES

Now yes, with these numbers I just gave hybrids a huge buff, at least over the short term. Over the long term this is actually a slight nerf for the hybrids because their percentage armor passives are slightly weaker. So please don't obsess over the numbers and focus on the point.

The point is that by changing the ratio it becomes possible to eliminate the problem of passives being double strength for a pure class.

That might be useful.

^I approve this message.

My feeling is that adding special hybrid defense passive nodes is a bad idea. Hybrids are hybrids for a reason and they generally have lower stats than pures. In this case, it should be 50% of a pure. Using Str/Int as an example, 100 AR or EV on a pure = 50 AR, 50 EV on a hybrid. As a hybrid, you have the flexibility to choose whether you want to be more beefy or more dodgey. You can choose to go straight down the middle too, in which case you'll just invest in an equal amount of Armor and Evasion. You don't need passives that give full benefit to both. That's the advantage to rolling a pure character, you get full benefit from your primary stat. As a hybrid, you should get half benefit and that's exactly what we have here. This is different from the Armor values because as a hybrid you're not getting half benefit from the armor as it should be.

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FaceLicker wrote:

My feeling is that adding special hybrid defense passive nodes is a bad idea. Hybrids are hybrids for a reason and they generally have lower stats than pures. In this case, it should be 50% of a pure. Using Str/Int as an example, 100 AR or EV on a pure = 50 AR, 50 EV on a hybrid. As a hybrid, you have the flexibility to choose whether you want to be more beefy or more dodgey. You can choose to go straight down the middle too, in which case you'll just invest in an equal amount of Armor and Evasion. You don't need passives that give full benefit to both. That's the advantage to rolling a pure character, you get full benefit from your primary stat. As a hybrid, you should get half benefit and that's exactly what we have here. This is different from the Armor values because as a hybrid you're not getting half benefit from the armor as it should be.

Actually what he's saying does make sense. Consider an armor/evasion example, since they're supposed to be equitable.
An armor pure has 1000 armor, and 10x 5% armor passives, giving a final value of 1500 armor.
An evasion pure has 1000 evasion, and 10x 5% evasion passives, giving a final value of 1500 evasion.
An armor/evasion hybrid has 500 armor and 500 evasion, and 5x 5% armor passives and 5x 5% evasion passives, giving a final value of 625 armor and 625 evasion, a combined total of 1250.
So the hybrid has less combined evasion + armor despite the exact same total contributions from gear and passives.

When you say "100 AR or EV on a pure = 50 AR, 50 EV on a hybrid" you're not quite right. What actually happens is something like "100 AR or EV on a pure = 35 AR, 35 EV on a hybrid" and may be much weaker.

redacted

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taekvideo wrote:

When you say "100 AR or EV on a pure = 50 AR, 50 EV on a hybrid" you're not quite right. What actually happens is something like "100 AR or EV on a pure = 35 AR, 35 EV on a hybrid" and may be much weaker.

I probably should have said 'invest in an equal amount of armor and evasion with double the effort.' You are naturally halving your benefits from the start with a half hybrid, so in order to stay relative you have to put in twice the effort. That's the sacrifice hybrids make. You're absolutely right that as things progress that the actual value no longer remains at 50/50. That should be intended. Hybrids should not be 100% as effective as pures. That's the drawback to being flexible, you become adequate at a lot of different things but not great at any one whereas the pure is great in only 1 area and suffers in the rest.

This contradicts what I'm asking for armor equipment where I feel it should be an equal gain. Perhaps It's not possible to have one or the other, and I'm just greedy lol.

Edit: I've thought about it some more and I actually don't see a contradiction anymore. There are 2 ways to increase values, with percentage gains and integer gains. Now, obviously hybrids will always be inferior when it comes to percentage gains for reasons taekvideo pointed out in his last example. However, hybrids will always gain an equal share with integers. If we take 1000 AR and modify it with +500AR we get 1500 total. If we take the hybrid at 500 AR 500 EV, and add +500 total split in half for each form of defense, we end up with 750/750 = 1500. Integer based modification is therefore the optimal way to keep things balanced.

Now, let's examine the role of equipment. Equipment adds to your character's defense values by a fixed integer(or at least it should). An item with 100 ES modified with 10% Increased ES should add a total of 110 ES to your pool and then further modified by your passives which should only be percentage based. Instead, what happens is the 100 ES is added to your pool and then the entire pool is modified by an extra 10%. This is a faulty and illogical methjod to increase values. The 10% increased ES should be applied locally to the item and only the item. Same goes for AR and EV. So, if for example:

I have an effective 100 ES, 50 ES from items and 100% in passives. Now I add an item that has a base value of 100 ES and a mod giving 10% increased ES.

Me: 50 ES + 100% = 100 ES
Item: 100 ES + 10% = 110 ES
Formula: (50 + 110) + 100% = 320 ES (This ought to be the correct formula in game)
Instead, the formula seems to be: (50 + 110) + 110% = 336 ES or (50 + 100) + 110% = 315 ES.(not too sure which is the current formula we see in game) Either of which being faulty, imo, and causing an imbalance.

How is it possible that a percentage designed to modify one item and value is instead applied to everything?

By applying the percentage locally(I hope I'm using the term correctly, lol) you are effectively making all items integer based gains. They are then modified by percentage gains acquired by passives. The items and their integer based values balance every class perfectly(assuming no passives are invested in). If we then add to hybrid gear an all encompassing +x% Increased Defense, then we are still retaining the benefits and integrity of integer based values. So long as the percentage is strictly applied to the item and not added to the passives, everything works out just fine.

We are then left with passives and percentages. As I stated earlier in this post, a hybrid dividing his attention into two stats will have to double his effort with percentage gains to stay perfectly balanced. This is perfectly normal as it's the intended consequence of choosing a dual stat hybrid that people have to acknowledge as well as understand. It is in no way imbalanced. If dual percentage passive nodes were to be implemented we lose that necessary sacrifice and we lose the intended balance the sacrifice provides.