Immunity's are a fundamental bad design considering recent changes.

It's quite obvious why, they are a "hard-counter" to certain builds.

There is no "working around it" or "utilizing strategy" to overcome hard-capped immunity's.

And there are reasons why that's how it is in a game like PoE. The game forces your character, it's skill selection and it's corresponding passive tree in a very rigorous abstract model in order to be "effective".

The higher the content you are trying to attain/compete with, the more rigorous that model becomes and the less options become available for your character to strive to "efficiency".

As to the "recent changes" part of my thread tittle.

This pertains the status ailments immunity and leach immunity modifiers.

GGG has recently lowered both in an effort to require "specialization" in those fields to attain "legacy functionality" of those modifiers. However, this also simultaneously means an effort or "price" is payed to attain those value's.

"increased freeze/shock/ignite" duration in the passive tree come to mind, which in the old game-state where not really mandatory to perform adequately.

Similarly the life leach clusters aim at a similar strategy for characters who wish to excel in those fields.

This represents a double edged sword with immunity modifiers on maps.

Since it not only limits and punishes skill gem and support link choices. But it also targets and punishes the character at it's fundamental design, the passive tree.

Simply put, these modifiers have the strength to reduce a passive tree's power from 80 points to 60 points in average strength. This should simply not be allowed. It strips your character from it's core defining aspects and as such, pushes the end-game to a very bland set of character developments.

This is probably a continuation of my absolute hate for atziri and her immunity's, which i "fought" roughly a month long on the forums for.

And my hate for the map modifiers like "stun immunity" and "curse immunity".

All of which can be summed up as "un-creative map modifiers"

In other games, this stuff might fly and hold relevant meaning and adequate difficulty. But in a game that forces a character in a select few optimization routes, annihilating those routes "on demand", is a very bad move.

Even more because there is no counter-play other then "reroll the map". And i don't consider re-rolling a map as a valid "counter-play" to overcome adversity.

In fact it does the opposite, it forces the player to not overcome the difficulty presented, but rather skip it in total.

The goal should be to kill players with end-game content. Not force them to create "easier" versions of that end-game.

"reduced % status ailment duration" = sweet, i like it
"reduced leach% efficiency" = sweet, i like it

Both represent a modifier that can be overcome by specialization to reach a status quo, where other builds without those points invested will struggle(but in return, are not reliant on them to function)

Immunity's don't offer this kind of flexibility.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : fixed a typo

Just want to note that a map mod doesn't have to be a straight immunity to completely counter some popular builds. The regen mods and -max counter RF builds, and the reflect mods counter many others.

By the way "reduced leech efficiency" already exists in the form of the %slower recovery mod.

"

Zed_ wrote:

Just want to note that a map mod doesn't have to be a straight immunity to completely counter some popular builds. The regen mods and -max counter RF builds, and the reflect mods counter many others.

By the way "reduced leech efficiency" already exists in the form of the %slower recovery mod.

RF is a poor example though, because while the community did make specific builds around it, it is in practice and in design a "self-buff".

Thus disabling that "self-buff" does not annihilate a builds core functionality.

You are still capable of functioning without RF active.

A build that rely's on freezing stuff for defensive measures, being specced into freeze% nodes and then disallowed to freeze doesn't have that luxury.

RF is a buff, even if build around it, it is not a core design of a build. (the core design in this particular case would be high% amounts of regen, in order to sustain RF, not the other way around)

I agree with the reduced recovery mod, your absolutely correct. Which begs the question, why full immunity's again?

They are lazy design, the end.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Bars wrote:

offtopic

If you wonder why I rarely reply to you, a bit of offtopic to clarify: your spelling and your obsessive insistence to sign with your name annoy me to no end. Also, writing walls of text all the time doesn't help. You know I'm no stranger to a good wall of text every now and then, but there are limits for everything.

So:

Apostrophe + s means possession. An "s" at the end of the word without an apostrophe means plural.

Therefore, it's "immunities", not "immunity's". It's also "you're" (a contraction of "you are"), not "your". "Your" also denotes possession. If you're wondering where you wrote "your" instead of "you're", it was in your post in the "break the game or game breaks you" thread.

These are not great intricacies of the English language, it's basic stuff learned in the first month of studies. Or first week.

^ YES!!!!!


@Boem:

Leech Immunity. And are YOU disagreeing ?!

GGG made something REALLY wrong this time. I have to agree with you op =).

"

Boem wrote:

RF is a poor example though, because while the community did make specific builds around it, it is in practice and in design a "self-buff".

Thus disabling that "self-buff" does not annihilate a builds core functionality.

You are still capable of functioning without RF active.

Well then we could argue curse, stun and status immunities fall into the same category. They are supplementary parts of builds, not core, and characters can function without them just as much as an RF build can function without RF.


As to the why, I can only suspect that GGG want to reward versatile and adaptable builds that don't go all in on one mechanic. A character that has both leech and regen, or maybe flask nodes instead of regen, will be hurt the least by the recovery mods, for example.
For extremely specialized builds there's always the Chaos Orb. They tend to perform better than versatile builds in the absence of counters.

"

Zed_ wrote:

"

Boem wrote:

RF is a poor example though, because while the community did make specific builds around it, it is in practice and in design a "self-buff".

Thus disabling that "self-buff" does not annihilate a builds core functionality.

You are still capable of functioning without RF active.

Well then we could argue curse, stun and status immunities fall into the same category. They are supplementary parts of builds, not core, and characters can function without them just as much as an RF build can function without RF.


As to the why, I can only suspect that GGG want to reward versatile and adaptable builds that don't go all in on one mechanic. A character that has both leech and regen, or maybe flask nodes instead of regen, will be hurt the least by the recovery mods, for example.
For extremely specialized builds there's always the Chaos Orb. They tend to perform better than versatile builds in the absence of counters.

Sure we could.

Curse Immunity => Reduced Curse Effect
Stun Immunity => Increased Stun Threshold
Elemental Status Immunity => Reduced Elemental Status Ailment Duration
Leech Immunity => Reduced Leech Rate (Why immunize something that is not even working right now btw ?)

I agree 100% with those.

Immunity is no-brainer. It will ALWAYS be, no. matter. WHAT.


I can ONLY accept SOME kinds of immunity for UBER bosses. And that's all.

"

EAKZOI wrote:

"

Bars wrote:

offtopic

If you wonder why I rarely reply to you, a bit of offtopic to clarify: your spelling and your obsessive insistence to sign with your name annoy me to no end. Also, writing walls of text all the time doesn't help. You know I'm no stranger to a good wall of text every now and then, but there are limits for everything.

So:

Apostrophe + s means possession. An "s" at the end of the word without an apostrophe means plural.

Therefore, it's "immunities", not "immunity's". It's also "you're" (a contraction of "you are"), not "your". "Your" also denotes possession. If you're wondering where you wrote "your" instead of "you're", it was in your post in the "break the game or game breaks you" thread.

These are not great intricacies of the English language, it's basic stuff learned in the first month of studies. Or first week.

^ YES!!!!!


@Topic:

Leech Immunity. And are YOU disagreeing ?!

GGG made something REALLY wrong this time. I have to agree with you op =).

I'm not disagreeing, I'm offtopicking :)

"

Bars wrote:

"

EAKZOI wrote:

"

Bars wrote:

offtopic

If you wonder why I rarely reply to you, a bit of offtopic to clarify: your spelling and your obsessive insistence to sign with your name annoy me to no end. Also, writing walls of text all the time doesn't help. You know I'm no stranger to a good wall of text every now and then, but there are limits for everything.

So:

Apostrophe + s means possession. An "s" at the end of the word without an apostrophe means plural.

Therefore, it's "immunities", not "immunity's". It's also "you're" (a contraction of "you are"), not "your". "Your" also denotes possession. If you're wondering where you wrote "your" instead of "you're", it was in your post in the "break the game or game breaks you" thread.

These are not great intricacies of the English language, it's basic stuff learned in the first month of studies. Or first week.

^ YES!!!!!


@Topic:

Leech Immunity. And are YOU disagreeing ?!

GGG made something REALLY wrong this time. I have to agree with you op =).

I'm not disagreeing, I'm offtopicking :)

I know, you're not =), i was talking about Boem =P I'll edit to make sure of it !

@OffTopic

"

Zed_ wrote:

Just want to note that a map mod doesn't have to be a straight immunity to completely counter some popular builds. The regen mods and -max counter RF builds, and the reflect mods counter many others.

Not the same thing. A GGG-made mechanic is directly nullifying a GGG-made mechanic, rather than a specialized player-made build.

All Curses -> Curse Immunity
All Stuns -> Stun Immunity
All Leech -> Leech Immunity

Immunity has no counter.

Reflect can be countered or diminished with life leech, life on-hit, block, dodge, evasion, armor, elemental resists, a unique ring, and tactics like staggered fire to let life regeneration keep up. Although I strongly dislike Reflect as a mechanic, GGG has at least removed Thornflesh and Reflect is no longer an aura on Rare monsters as of 2.0.

The players behind RF builds have taken a skill to an interesting extreme, but that doesn't mean such a use was GGG's intention. GGG can't predict every possible build, nor should every build necessarily be viable. But, at least they have a chance to make it work. RF players can take more life regen nodes, run Vitality, and throw down a Rejuvenation Totem. Immunity offers zero recourse.

"

Zed_ wrote:

By the way "reduced leech efficiency" already exists in the form of the %slower recovery mod.

Both mods can exist. One is just more specialized. It's like +/- Elemental Resists vs. +/- Fire Resist.