Converted damage of conversions converts even more damage when it is converted from convers...

"

Philkingz wrote:

Correct me if im wrong:

"added conversion" is applied before the "normal conversion", ignoring the usual order of conversion

Actually it doesn't matter as long as you respect the conversion priority order. It's calculated at the same time. For exemple if you have 30% of cold added as fire and 30 of cold converted to fire, you will end up with 60% of your cold dmg converted to fire. Except that when it's added you gain fire dmg without losing cold, and when its converted you gain fire dmg but at the expense of the same amount of cold dmg.

"

Philkingz wrote:

- about Order:
The wiki text is inaccurate - "Physical → Lightning → Cold → Fire → Chaos" can mean two things:
a.
1. ...converted to physical
2. ...converted Lightning
3. ...converted cold
4. ...converted Fire
5. ...converted Chaos

or b.
1. Physical converted to...
2. Lightning converted to...
...

Option b is correct, you can replace the "->" by "converted to"

About your third question, yes you pointed something we both did wrong.


The right calculation is :

Base :

50% phy -> ligth (Sup)
50% phy -> fire (Skill)
50% phy -> fire (AoF)

Total : 150%

It needs to be scaled down to 100%. AoF and Sup are not skill gem, they are scaled down. Skill gems can not be scaled down.

Result :

25% phy -> ligth (Sup)
50% phy -> fire (Skill)
25% phy -> fire (AoF)

So its 25 lightning + 75 fire.

Haha, now I think we are good. A lot to think. Sorry for my mistakes, it's the first time I look at dmg conversion mecanics. I learned a lot.

I'm correcting my first post right now.

Thanks so far!


Edit: This post is already outdated, thanks to viper, i need to rearrange my thoughts.

-----------------------------------------
Keep in mind that replacing -> with " converted to will lead to another missinterpretation:

"Physical → Lightning → Cold → Fire → Chaos" would become
"Physical converted to Lightning converted to Cold converted to Fire converted to Chaos",
although you mean "Physical converted to... => Lightning converted to... => ... "

I think we now have every single (mis)interpretation I had about the statements of the wiki. This thread is properous and good. Maybe we should improve the wiki data to be more specific and correct.
-------------------------------------------

[Actually the misinterpretion was none, it was the correct one, rofl]

I sum up:

a.The Order of Applienace is defined by the source: -> clear
1.physical damage converted to something else
2.lighning damage converted so something else
and so on with cold, fire and chaos.

[ no actually wrong, there is no order, only a direction of flow, that can be skipped but never reversed.]

b. Skillgems cannot be scaled, they take priority -> clear [This is actually the only order we have]

c. The rest is scaled, no matter which source from, even if it exceeds 100%.
This means that AOF is not ignored like viper proposed, but we need confirmation on this. [again wrong, it is ignored since since gems (skills and linked supports) have priority over the rest and they already exceeded 100%... mhm .. there is something weird here, because we have 3 gems. They cannot be scaled, have the same priority and exceed 100%... what are we gonna do now? Is this problem solved by the "order of flows"? WTF im sitting down now and recalculate everything]

d. It does not matter if "Added-Conversion" is applied before normal conversion as long as the order of appliance is met. This is something i doubt, cause it results in different outcomes in my head. I need to rethink about that. [There i was right, it is done before normal conversion]

Arg yes, its confusing. Yes you are right, support gem "gain" the immunity of skill gem when they are in conflict with conversion from gear or passives.

The Task
100 Physical Damage

Added damage
30% Phys as Lightning
35% Phys as Cold
30% Cold as Fire
15% Phys as Fire

Converted damage
50% Phys to Lightning (Supgem)
50% Phys to Fire (Skillgem)
50% Cold to Fire (supgem)
50% Phys to Fire (AoF)
50% Lightning to Fire (AoF)
50% Cold to Fire (AoF)


------------------------------------------------------------




My humble try to tame the beast:

1. Added Damage results in:

100 phys, 30 Lightning, 35 cold, 15 Fire

("30% cold as fire" is ignored since "i had" no colddamage, correct me!)


2. Now convert the XXXX into a big pile of xxxx as long as the order of xxxxing is not broken:

Remember:
Physical → Lightning → Cold → Fire → Chaos

and


50% Phys to Lightning (Supgem)
50% Phys to Fire (Skillgem)
50% Cold to Fire (supgem) take priority, cannot be scaled, exceed 100%, and no order...

... okay i dont know how to proceed now...

ah NOW I got it (hopefully):

100 phys, 30 Lightning, 35 cold, 15 Fire
is converted to
80 (50+30) Lightning | 82,5 (15+50+17,5) Fire | 17,5 (35*0,5)Cold


3. Ok now dealing with AoF:

Since the gem thing already took all 100% of physical damage only.... yea.. what only now?

50% Phys to Fire (AoF)- ignored
50% Lightning to Fire (AoF) - applied
50% Cold to Fire (AoF)- applied

?

Results in

40 (80*0,5) Lightning | 131,25 (82,5+40+8,75) Fire | 8,75 (17,5*0,5)Cold ?

The last Step is kinda weird.

"

Vipermagi wrote:

I'm really not sure what Raics meant to say, btw :P

Nothing of difference, if you got, say, a physical to cold and cold to fire conversion you should calculate physical to cold first. Because conversions can convert damage that was already converted from something else you should resolve elements following the conversion order of priority, meaning you should move on to fire only when there's no more cold to be gained anywhere.

First step :

Phys -> Light -> Cold -> Fire -> Chaos

30% Phys added as Lightning
35% Phys added as Cold
15% Phys added as Fire

50% Phys converted Lightning (Supgem)
50% Phys converted Fire (Skillgem)
50% Phys converted Fire (AoF) ignored

Resulting in :

30% + 50% of base Phys added as Light and minus 50% of Phys
35% of base Phys added as Cold
15% + 50% of base Phys added as Fire and minus 50% of Phys

After the first conversion we have

0 Phy
80 Light
35 Cold
65 Fire


Second step :

Phys -> Light -> Cold -> Fire -> Chaos

50% Light to Fire (AoF)

After the second conversion we have :

0 Phy
40 Light
35 Cold
105 Fire


Third step :

Phys -> Light -> Cold -> Fire -> Chaos

30% Cold added as Fire

50% Cold to Fire (supgem)
50% Cold to Fire (AoF)

Which means 130% of Cold added as fire and minus 100% cold

After the third and last conversion we have :

0 Phy
40 Light
0 Cold
150.5 Fire

@Zybel
I begin to fucking break. I never had such difficulties understanding statements before. Our calculations differ and i cannot see any arguments on your calculation that legitimate why you calculate the way you do. You could read my calculation like i read yours, but maybe it is easier if i ask you directly:


1. Your first step

What about "30% Cold added as Fire"? You calculate it in your third step, but viper said:

"

Added Conversion" is not Conversion, it's an entirely separate mechanic often called 'Damage Based On' or 'Damage Added As'. It occurs before Conversion.

So isnt it applied before conversion?

"

"Damage conversion only flows in one direction between types, possibly skipping types, but never going in reverse:"

What the wiki is saying is, you can Convert Phys to anything, but Cold can only be Converted to Fire or Chaos, and Chaos cannot be Converted at all. It says nothing about an order of operations to maintain.

Does that mean there is no order, only direction of flow, priority and scaling?
Since "50% Cold to Fire (supgem)" has priority, but the sum of "50% Cold to Fire (supgem)" and "50% Cold to Fire (AoF)" does not exceed 100%, it doesnt need to be scaled - so all colddamage is converted to fire, but only the amount of colddamage we got after "add (%) physical as" and "flat damage".



My assumption is:

Phys | Light | Cold | Fire
100 | 30 | 35 | 15 - after added damage
0 | 80 | 35 | 65 when all phys is converted
0 | 40 | 35 | 105 when all light is converted
0 | 40 | 0 | 140 when all cold is converted


If this is right, this would make me object to the statement that there is no order of operation - summary:

When the amount of converted damage type exceeds 100% the conversion needs to be scaled. Skillgems as well as linked supportgems have priority over other conversions and cannot be scaled. Fortunately there are no gems in the game that in sum exceed 100% of a damage type. That means there is no need for a rule to that situation. Last but not least, there are no gems, passives that break the direction of converted damage type, so even the direction is obsolete if it does not imply an order.

I conlcude that there should be an order like:

1. Added damage + flatdamage
2. convert all physical sources
3. convert all lightning sources
4. convert all cold sources
5. convert all fire sources

I think im still wrong about it, because if my summary would be right, the whole explanation of the wiki would be weird.

I avoid using these gems because I figure I'm more likely to gimp myself than actually improve my damage since I'm too lazy to actually math all this out...

Is there some kind of conversion for dummies course I can take that just says like "X is good when Y" and "Z is good when S?"

"

I avoid using these gems because I figure I'm more likely to gimp myself than actually improve my damage since I'm too lazy to actually math all this out...

Is there some kind of conversion for dummies course I can take that just says like "X is good when Y" and "Z is good when S?"

I tried to make a calculator a while ago. Its ok, but it is not tricky enough to deal with every interaction of conversion for now. However I got some some good feelings about some gems with it:

- "adds (%) physical as X" - is nearly always good. It benefits from physical damage increase as well as elemental. Simplified: Added Fire - increases your damage by (at least) 45%. So all gems, items that "add (%) elemental damage" are good, even in physical builds, as long as you are allowed to inflict that damagetype. "Increased-modifier" will stack additively, so you can scale that kind of elemental damage with physicaldamage as good as with elemental damage.

- In this connection you should keep in mind that "50% more physical damage" scales all your elemental damage converted from physical and can be therefore stronger than "add 30% physical damage as element"

- If you have two "convert 50% physical damage to an element", you do not inflict physical damage anymore. However it scales multiplicatively with "50% more physical damage" and "60% more elemental damage" gems (on attacks), giving you 140% more damage.

- Firedamage-builds are complicated. They excel if you convert all your physical damage to Fire. Not because "Increased fire damage" scales your hit damage like "increased physical damage" does, but ignite double-dips with it.
Firedamagebuils without ignite are kinda weird. Just an example: In a simple Infernalblow setup i get about 48k dps with infernal blow and 17k dps from Ignite. WIth a pure physical Infernal blow i get about the same dps, but the explosion of infernal blow 4times weaker than with fire. If i would use a fireskill in a critical build the difference becomes crazy, since criticals ignite the target based on the critical damage that will double dip on ignite.
What i wanna say is: You can mix all elementals, but if your maindamage comes from fire, it is wise to convert all your damage to it and let ignite and "increased fire damage" do the job. The dps-sheet ingame does not consider ignite damage. Fireskills are hungry.

I could do some more, but it dont sound like rules of thumb anymore.