Converted damage of conversions converts even more damage when it is converted from convers...

Hi there,
this is my third thread regarding gamemechanics. I usually started my threads with complaints about the unexplained complexity of this game. I pass this state now to get directly to the point.
I read the article about damage conversion several times, still too many questions unanswered to write em up. Is someone able to do this conversion? It would answer my questions about Order and Conversion of Converted Damage inherently.

The Task
100 Physical Damage

Added damage
30% Phys as Lightning
35% Phys as Cold
30% Cold as Fire
15% Phys as Fire

Converted damage
50% Phys to Lightning (Supgem)
50% Phys to Fire (Skillgem)
50% Cold to Fire (supgem)
50% Phys to Fire (AoF)
50% Lightning to Fire (AoF)
50% Cold to Fire (AoF)

Results in ?


I understand how the multiplicators affect those stats, so i dont need any explanation on that. I dont understand in which order damage is converted, when converted damage can be converted again and when added damage is applied. So if someone is able to do this, i tip my hat to him.
It results in a headache
You got a total of 150% physical converted to elemental so first you re-adjust the conversion to a total of 100% conversion. In this case 100% from physical is converted to fire and 50% of physical to lightning, so actually 66.7% is converted to fire and 33.3% converted to lighting.

So you have 66.7 fire dmg and 33.3 lightning dmg.

Total lighting dmg will be 33.3 + (100 * 0.3) = 63.3 of which 50% is converted to fire and the rest is lost due to AoF

Total cold dmg will be 100 * 0.35 = 35 of which 100% is converted to fire

Total fire damage will be 66.7 + (35 * 0.3) + (100 * 0.15) + (63.3 * 0.5) + 35 = 66.7 + 10.5 + 15 + 31.6 + 35 = 158.8 fire damage which is also the grand total of your damage.


Feel free to correct me if i made a mistake somewhere.
Inundated with cockroaches, I am

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1609216 - labyrinth rework ideas/suggestions
There's an order to this, it goes physical-lightning-cold-fire-chaos, and for each element you should also do added damage before conversion.

So, it's
added as lightning
converted to lightning
added as cold
converted to cold
added as fire
converted to fire
added as chaos
converted to chaos

Just follow this sequence and there's pretty much nothing to mess up.
Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs.

◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]►
◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]►
Last edited by raics on Aug 3, 2015, 3:10:44 AM
"
You got a total of 150% physical converted to elemental so first you re-adjust the conversion to a total of 100% conversion. In this case 100% from physical is converted to fire and 50% of physical to lightning, so actually 66.7% is converted to fire and 33.3% converted to lighting.

Skill gems takes priority over other sources. So, 50% physical will be converted to fire and 50% to lightning due to gems and then there will be nothing left for AoF.
Everything is accurate now

I corrected 3 things :

- Miss read op question (wrote 30% phy -> fire instead of 30% cold -> fire
- Forgot that gems and skills take priority over passives from gear and skill tree if the converstion total gets above 100%.
- Used 33% added from cold -> fire instead of 30%



Added damages from auras or heralds or anything else work like converted damage. You need to respect an order or priority.

Order priority of conversion :

Physical → Lightning → Cold → Fire → Chaos



100 Physical Damage

Added damage from Physical (works like converted)

Physical → Lightning → Cold → Fire → Chaos

30% Phys as Lightning -> Take base dmg, apply both physical + elemental increased damages -> here you have 0 -> 30 lightning

35% Phys as Cold -> Take base dmg, apply both physical + elemental increased damages -> here you have 0 -> 35 cold

15% Phys as Fire -> Take base dmg, apply both physical + elemental increased damages -> here you have 0 -> 15 fire

30% Cold as Fire -> see below, because of conversion priority


Total of added damage + physical damage :

100 Physical
30 Lightning
35 Cold
15 Fire

Total combined damages : 180


The you convert. You first have to separate each converstion into groups of the same origine

First the physical to xxx (Physical → Lightning → Cold → Fire → Chaos)

50% Phys to Lightning (Supgem)
50% Phys to Fire (Skillgem)
50% Phys to Fire (AoF)

you have 150% conversion, but since AoF is not a skill or a gem, it is not taken into account because there is already a total of 100% from the skill and the support gems linked to it (see wiki). Resulting in

50% Phys to Lightning (Supgem) -> + 50 lightning - 50 phy
50% Phys to Fire (Skillgem) + 50 fire - 50 phy

Resulting in + 50 lightning + 50 fire and - 100 physical


Resulting in :
80 Lightning
35 Cold
65 Fire

Total combined damages : 180

Then the lightning (Physical → Lightning → Cold → Fire → Chaos)

50% Lightning to Fire (AoF) -> you have 30 lightning from base damage + 50 lightning from converstion -> 80 lighting -> converted at 0.5* factor -> 40 lightning + 40 fire

Resulting in 40 lightning + 40 fire

Resulting in :
40 Lightning
35 Cold
105 Fire

Total combined damages : 180


Now for cold dmg. Here it is exactly 100%, so no scaling down, 100% of your cold is converted to fire

30% Cold added as Fire

50% Cold to Fire (supgem)
50% Cold to Fire (AoF)

You had 35 cold, add 10.5 to fire and the base 35 becomes 35 fire, for a total of 45.5.

Resulting in :
40 Lightning
150.5 Fire

Total combined damages : 190.5

Sub total :

100 Physical -> 50 lightning (move this lightning to the lightning part) + 50 fire
35 Cold -> 10.5 + 35 fire : 45.5 fire
15 Fire -> 15 fire
30 Lightning + 50 lightning (from the physical part) = 40 lightning + 40 fire


Total

0 physical
150.5 fire
40 lightning

Total combined damages : 190.5 (180 + 10.5 from cold -> fire added)

Deal no fire dmg :


Rest : 150.5 fire


Did it helped?
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Last edited by Zybeline2 on Aug 3, 2015, 10:10:14 AM
"
Zybeline2 wrote:
Added damages from auras or heralds or anything else work like converted damage. You need to respect an order or priority.

Order priority of conversion :

Physical → Lightning → Cold → Fire → Chaos



100 Physical Damage

Added damage from Physical (works like converted)

Physical → Lightning → Cold → Fire → Chaos

Be aware that if you had +added from an other source, you would need to calculate it in the right order (for exemple if you had +30% of cold added as fire, you would need to do it after you did the physical and lightning). So here it is an easy task, cause all added come from the physical.

It is not because you converts 100% of your physical to something that +xxx from physical has no effect. You still do phyiscal, but it is converted. The base physical damage is used for the +xxx added, even if you do not do any physical damage.


30% Phys as Lightning -> Take base dmg, apply both physical + elemental increased damages -> here you have 0 -> 30 lightning

35% Phys as Cold -> Take base dmg, apply both physical + elemental increased damages -> here you have 0 -> 35 cold

30% Cold as Fire -> Take base dmg, apply both physical + elemental increased damages -> here you have 0 -> 30 fire

15% Phys as Fire -> Take base dmg, apply both physical + elemental increased damages -> here you have 0 -> 15 fire


Total of added damage + physical damage :

100 Physical
30 Lightning
35 Cold
30 + 15 = 45 Fire

Total combined damages : 210


The you convert. You first have to separate each converstion into groups of the same origine

Be aware that if your added source was not from physical, you would need to merge everything, because added damage mechanics work like converted damage. So my split between converted and added is in way wrong, but it work here because all added damage are from physical.



First the physical to xxx (Physical → Lightning → Cold → Fire → Chaos)

50% Phys to Lightning (Supgem)
50% Phys to Fire (AoF)
50% Phys to Fire (Skillgem)

you have 150% conversion, you need to scale it down to 100% (see wiki). Resulting in

33.4% Phys to Lightning (Supgem) -> + 33.4 lightning - 33.4 phy
33.3% Phys to Fire (AoF) -> + 33.3 fire - 33.4 phy
33.3% Phys to Fire (Skillgem) + 33.3 fire - 33.3 phy

Resulting in + 33.4 lightning + 66.6 fire and - 100 physical


Resulting in :
63.4 Lightning
35 Cold
111.6 Fire


Then the lightning (Physical → Lightning → Cold → Fire → Chaos)

50% Lightning to Fire (AoF) -> you have 30 lightning from base damage + 33.4 lightning from converstion -> 63.4 lighting -> converted at 0.5* factor -> 31.7 lightning + 31.7 fire

Resulting in 31.7 lightning + 31.7 fire

Resulting in :
31.7 Lightning
35 Cold
143.3 Fire


Now for cold dmg. Here it is exactly 100%, so no scaling down, 100% of your cold is converted to fire

50% Cold to Fire (supgem)
50% Cold to Fire (AoF)

You had 35 cold, it becomes 35 fire.

Resulting in :
31.7 Lightning
178.3 Fire



Sub total :

100 Physical -> 33.4 lightning (move this lightning to the lightning part) + 66.6 fire
35 Cold -> 35 fire
45 Fire -> 45 fire
30 Lightning + 33.4 lightning (from the physical part) = 31.7 lightning + 31.7 fire


Total

0 physical
178.3 fire
31.7 lightning

Total combined damages : 210 (yea its the same!!!)

Deal no fire dmg :


Rest : 178.3 fire


Did it helped?


I think you have made a mistake and badly accounted added dmg - this chain: 35% Phys as Cold ->
30% Cold as Fire
MY CHALLENGES ARE DONE ON HC, IT'S NOT SC GUYS!
100 Physical Damage

Added damage
30% Phys as Lightning
35% Phys as Cold
15% Phys as Fire
30% Cold as Fire

Converted damage
50% Phys to Lightning (Supgem)
50% Phys to Fire (Skillgem)
50% Phys to Fire (AoF)
50% Lightning to Fire (AoF)
50% Cold to Fire (supgem)
50% Cold to Fire (AoF)

100 Phys, Damage Added As:
30 Light (from Phys)
35 Cold (from Phys)
15 Fire (from Phys)

Conversion: Skill/Support takes precedence, totals 100%, AoF is no use:
100 Phys -> 50 Lightning (from Phys), 50 Fire (from Phys)
sum: 80 Lit (fP), 35 C (fP), 65 F (fP)

50% Light to Fire: 80 Lightning (from Phys) -> 40 Fire (from Lightning, from Phys), 40 Lightning (from Phys)
sum: 40 L (fP), 35 C (fP), 65 F (fP), 40 F (fLfP)

30% Cold as Fire: 10.5 Fire (from Cold, from Phys)
sum: 40 L (fP), 35 C (fP), 65 F (fP), 40 F (fLfP), 10.5 F (fCfP)

100% Cold to Fire: 35 Cold (from Phys) -> 35 Fire (from Cold, from Phys)
sum: 40 L (fP), 65 F (fP), 40 F (fLfP), 45.5 Fire (fCfP)

Add Damage modifiers (zero, in this case).
AoF kills non-Fire.
Sum: 65 + 40 + 45.5 = 150.5, rounds to 150 Fire Damage

Losing 25% of your original Damage to incomplete Phys -> Light -> Fire kinda blows. :)
Last edited by Vipermagi on Aug 3, 2015, 6:45:09 AM
"
Filousov wrote:

I think you have made a mistake and badly accounted added dmg - this chain: 35% Phys as Cold ->
30% Cold as Fire


Thank's a lot. Indeed I missread the op question. Also corrected the converstion from physical, AoF is overwritten by skills and gems, also corrected the added from cold, I used 33% instead of 30%. I corrected everything to be in line with op question. I get the same values as Vipermagi, so I guess its right now.
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Last edited by Zybeline2 on Aug 3, 2015, 7:56:48 AM
Thank you guys, especially raics for helping me a third time. I read all your answers carefully. There are still things that are weird. Let me sum up some things, so i can be sure that I misses nothing now.

Correct me if im wrong:

- about added damage
Spoiler
"added conversion" is applied before the "normal conversion", ignoring the usual order of conversion


- about Order:
Spoiler
The wiki text is inaccurate - "Physical → Lightning → Cold → Fire → Chaos" can mean two things:
a.
1. ...converted to physical
2. ...converted Lightning
3. ...converted cold
4. ...converted Fire
5. ...converted Chaos

or b.
1. Physical converted to...
2. Lightning converted to...
...

If Im not mistaken Zybeline and Raics have a different Opinion of this, or am i completely nuts?


- Priority of Skillgems
Spoiler
From wiki
"
Conversion from skill gems takes priority over conversion from other sources (such as equipment), and is not scaled.
... is again not helpful cause:

a. There is no information on how other "gems" work, like Supports. Does this "no scale"-rule only apply to the one skillgem you are using or...
b. ...work supportgems like skillgems, so that even skillgems/supportgems are scaled in the same pool?



- Zybel's calculation

Spoiler
Depending on the answeres above there could be still mistakes
"
First the physical to xxx (Physical → Lightning → Cold → Fire → Chaos)

50% Phys to Lightning (Supgem)
50% Phys to Fire (Skillgem)
50% Phys to Fire (AoF)

you have 150% conversion, but since AoF is not a skill or a gem, it is not taken into account (see wiki). Resulting in

50% Phys to Lightning (Supgem) -> + 50 lightning - 50 phy
50% Phys to Fire (Skillgem) + 50 fire - 50 phy

Resulting in + 50 lightning + 50 fire and - 100 physical


"
First the physical to xxx (Physical → Lightning → Cold → Fire → Chaos)

50% Phys to Lightning (Supgem)
50% Phys to Fire (AoF)
50% Phys to Fire (Skillgem)

you have 150% conversion, you need to scale it down to 100% (see wiki). Resulting in

33.4% Phys to Lightning (Supgem) -> + 33.4 lightning - 33.4 phy
33.3% Phys to Fire (AoF) -> + 33.3 fire - 33.4 phy
33.3% Phys to Fire (Skillgem) + 33.3 fire - 33.3 phy

Resulting in + 33.4 lightning + 66.6 fire and - 100 physical

I dont know what order is right now, "phys converted to...." or "...converted to phys", but if i take your order as granted, then there is something to think about in your first step.

1. The values are doubled somehow. Dont know why. 100 Physical damage that is converted cannot exceed an amount of 100 elemental damage.
2. The "50% phys to fire" of the skillgem (infernal blow btw) should have priority and therefore not be scaled, as long as the wiki is not wrong.

This results in 50% of 100 physical converted to Fire. Then rest is scaled...
In the end we should get 50 Fire, 25 Fire, 25 Lightning, since [50/(50+50)]*50=25. If raics order is right, the whole thing is even different.


- Viper's Calculation
Spoiler
"
Conversion: Skill/Support takes precedence, totals 100%, AoF is no use:
100 Phys -> 50 Lightning (from Phys), 50 Fire (from Phys)
sum: 80 Lit (fP), 35 C (fP), 65 F (fP)

50% Light to Fire: 80 Lightning (from Phys) -> 40 Fire (from Lightning, from Phys), 40 Lightning (from Phys)
sum: 40 L (fP), 35 C (fP), 65 F (fP), 40 F (fLfP)

30% Cold as Fire: 10.5 Fire (from Cold, from Phys)
sum: 40 L (fP), 35 C (fP), 65 F (fP), 40 F (fLfP), 10.5 F (fCfP)

100% Cold to Fire: 35 Cold (from Phys) -> 35 Fire (from Cold, from Phys)
sum: 40 L (fP), 65 F (fP), 40 F (fLfP), 45.5 Fire (fCfP)

Add Damage modifiers (zero, in this case).
AoF kills non-Fire.
Sum: 65 + 40 + 45.5 = 150.5, rounds to 150 Fire Damage


You Order is ... ...from physical, ... from lightning, from cold... ...right? You also consider (added as XXX) in this order, correct? So you are in line with Zybels argument.
Now there a two questions: You treat support gems like skill gems, is this correct? Or should the skillgem have priority over supports? In addition you irgnore AOF, cause it is applied after gems and exceeds 100%. Is this all correct?


Last edited by Philkingz on Aug 3, 2015, 9:43:29 AM

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