Cleave

My cleave gem doesn't work anymore since the last patch was applied. :(

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pleasejason wrote:

i was around 25k dps pre-nerf, down to 13k post-nerf. yeah, cleave is dead.

Were you ele or phys?

Phys should have seen a net loss in the like 15% range (as another guy said). ele should be weeing oh... a 40% DPS loss. Which is what you got, so I assume you're Ele.

Cleave isn't dead. It's just balanced for Ele/Phys (finally) and not broken damage scaling (due to total double dip of ele damage a la dual strike)

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Autocthon wrote:

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pleasejason wrote:

i was around 25k dps pre-nerf, down to 13k post-nerf. yeah, cleave is dead.

Were you ele or phys?

Phys should have seen a net loss in the like 15% range (as another guy said). ele should be weeing oh... a 40% DPS loss. Which is what you got, so I assume you're Ele.

Cleave isn't dead. It's just balanced for Ele/Phys (finally) and not broken damage scaling (due to total double dip of ele damage a la dual strike)

His assumption is based on the wording in the skill description rather than actual testing.

What actual testing shows with lv1 duelist is following:

Singlewielding a 5-10 damage axe yields 4-7 main hand damage like expected (70%).
Dualwielding two 5-10 damage axes yield 2-4 main hand damage and 2-4 offhand damage; this is consistent with applying a 0.7*0.6 modifier and not a simple 0.6 modifier like he suggested.

10*0.7*0.6 = 4.2 while 10*0.6 = 6.

So it is evident that this is gigantic nerf that killed both physical and ele cleaves. Q.E.D.

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andinuad wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

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pleasejason wrote:

i was around 25k dps pre-nerf, down to 13k post-nerf. yeah, cleave is dead.

Were you ele or phys?

Phys should have seen a net loss in the like 15% range (as another guy said). ele should be weeing oh... a 40% DPS loss. Which is what you got, so I assume you're Ele.

Cleave isn't dead. It's just balanced for Ele/Phys (finally) and not broken damage scaling (due to total double dip of ele damage a la dual strike)

His assumption is based on the wording in the skill description rather than actual testing.

What actual testing shows with lv1 duelist is following:

Singlewielding a 5-10 damage axe yields 4-7 main hand damage like expected (70%).
Dualwielding two 5-10 damage axes yield 2-4 main hand damage and 2-4 offhand damage; this is consistent with applying a 0.7*0.6 modifier and not a simple 0.6 modifier like he suggested.

10*0.7*0.6 = 4.2 while 10*0.6 = 6.

So it is evident that this is gigantic nerf that killed both physical and ele cleaves. Q.E.D.

If it's doing that then it has the wrong language, and is probably a bug.

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andinuad wrote:

His assumption is based on the wording in the skill description rather than actual testing.

What actual testing shows with lv1 duelist is following:

Singlewielding a 5-10 damage axe yields 4-7 main hand damage like expected (70%).
Dualwielding two 5-10 damage axes yield 2-4 main hand damage and 2-4 offhand damage; this is consistent with applying a 0.7*0.6 modifier and not a simple 0.6 modifier like he suggested.

10*0.7*0.6 = 4.2 while 10*0.6 = 6.

So it is evident that this is gigantic nerf that killed both physical and ele cleaves. Q.E.D.

Cleave is still useable. It's just not brokenly powerful anymore.

You're correct in that dual wielding applies both the 70% and 60% modifiers (Skill deals 70% of base at all times. When dual wielding, skill deals 60% of -that-, but hits with both weapons simultaneously) but it's important to remember that you're still hitting with two weapons at once. In your example, dual wielding would still deal 4-8 damage per hit, which is more than single wielding, and does not take into account the intrinsic 10% more attack speed modifier of dual wielding.

An interesting break point is whether it's better to single wield or dual wield. Assuming the 10% more attack speed is worth a 1.10 damage modifier (it will be worth more if you have significant increased attack speed), we can calculate it as follows:
Single - 70% M.H. DPS
Double - (70%*60%*110%) M.H. DPS + (70%*60%*110%) O.H. DPS
Or 46.2% MH DPS + 46.2 OH DPS
So is 46.2% off-hand DPS equal or more than 24.8% of your main hand weapon's base DPS? Or to put it another way, does your main-hand weapon have more than 1.86x the DPS of your off-hand? If so, single-wield cleave and just use a shield. Otherwise, you will see an increase in damage applied per second.

This runs into complications regarding physical damage / armor interactions, since you're effectively splitting your physical DPS into a greater volume of smaller hits. That's armor's forte, so you may lower your DPS with it, similar to how using multistrike can lower your physical DPS against armored targets when your phys damage just isn't high enough. But elemental damage comes out alright, just closer to balanced than previously.

Anyways, the takeaway here is that dual wielding cleave (rather than one-handing it) will still see a damage increase as long as your off-hand compares even moderately to your main-hand.

Edit: A typo or two.

As far I know (I'm beginner) there are 3 ways for AoE for melee

1. cleave
2. reave
3. support game that adds AoE (not remember the name

Cleave is weakest of all 3 now,
is only one that needs 2 attributes,
and has worst DPS outcome from all 3.

It has been nerfed too much in my opinion,
It was clear option for duelist, one of very few skills that needs both str and dex,
and now duelist will choose dex option (Ad.2.) or str maruder's option (ad.3.)

so what's a point? it should be one AOE skill for every type melee character

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Mhelkir wrote:

As far I know (I'm beginner) there are 3 ways for AoE for melee

1. cleave
2. reave
3. support game that adds AoE (not remember the name

Cleave is weakest of all 3 now,
is only one that needs 2 attributes,
and has worst DPS outcome from all 3.

It has been nerfed too much in my opinion,
It was clear option for duelist, one of very few skills that needs both str and dex,
and now duelist will choose dex option (Ad.2.) or str maruder's option (ad.3.)

so what's a point? it should be one AOE skill for every type melee character

there is also ground slam and sweep. also some people consider lightning strike (projectiles hit more foes) an AoE then, infernal blow IS an AoE but only on kill.

Both sweep and slam are on str, and sweep can't be used with 1h or dual wield.

As I said in other topic, skills for duelist are very rare,
this is one from about 5 skills that needs str and dex.

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Softspoken wrote:

nd does not take into account the intrinsic 10% more attack speed modifier of dual wielding.

An interesting break point is whether it's better to single wield or dual wield. Assuming the 10% more attack speed is worth a 1.10 damage modifier (it will be worth more if you have significant increased attack speed), we can calculate it as follows:

10% more attack speed is by definition a 1.10 DPS multiplier. Having more base AS doesn't in any way make it more effective.