XP Loss on Death

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goetzjam wrote:

That bullshit overused "connection" excuse is nothing but a lame excuse brought up from a relic of the past "desync". If you have connection issues or even if the route is having issues, that has nothing to do with the game design for penalty.

People play on HC in this game, they don't just lose 10%, they lose their character and items.

People have spikes, but honestly if its happening to you more then once in a blue moon, its your connection, not anything GGG can control. Why are you suggesting they should change the penalty because of stuff you can change?

So tell me, where can I get a better connection in South America? I cannot change the continent I am living on (technically I could, but then again, not worth it for a game).

There are good reasons for why I do not play HC.

The xp loss penalty on softcore I'd say it's pretty low, I'd put it at 50% , that makes the game more exciting a bit even on standard difficulty , and hc is just hc , some people like me don't play it for internet reasons , I get at least 2 dcs/day so not worth wasting my time in hc even though I'd like to play hc but not worth with my current connection.

Again, you're thinking with the mind of a expert player. The truth is, if you heightened the XP loss that would be absolutely tragic to new players. And would easily be one of the biggest mistakes they could make. Also, normal and cruel difficulty is nothing. Can you even imagine a new player starting in patch 2.0 and actually learning enough to be able to just blow through merciless? That's crazy talk man. You need to put yourself/yourselves in a new players shoes here. And I'm a moderately new player, the 4-5 friends I've invited to play are new players. And we all say the same thing. If there's a work around to make it more difficult for the expert players then I'm all for it. I simply can't think of anything off the top of my head. The developers of PoE can take our ideas and make them better, it's their job- they have the time to do that. But the fact remains, new players are saying leveling up is a very important progression technique they use to help learn the game. If they keep restarting new builds, with new gear and waste their very limited currency then eventually they'll quit. They need to be able to restart only enough times to make sure they can deal with a lower XP death penalty. But right now, as a new player, and speaking for other new players I know, the XP rate is too high and significantly heightens the learning curve and therefore scares away new players on top of that.

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nick66234 wrote:

Again, you're thinking with the mind of a expert player. The truth is, if you heightened the XP loss that would be absolutely tragic to new players. And would easily be one of the biggest mistakes they could make. Also, normal and cruel difficulty is nothing. Can you even imagine a new player starting in patch 2.0 and actually learning enough to be able to just blow through merciless? That's crazy talk man. You need to put yourself/yourselves in a new players shoes here. And I'm a moderately new player, the 4-5 friends I've invited to play are new players. And we all say the same thing. If there's a work around to make it more difficult for the expert players then I'm all for it. I simply can't think of anything off the top of my head. The developers of PoE can take our ideas and make them better, it's their job- they have the time to do that. But the fact remains, new players are saying leveling up is a very important progression technique they use to help learn the game. If they keep restarting new builds, with new gear and waste their very limited currency then eventually they'll quit. They need to be able to restart only enough times to make sure they can deal with a lower XP death penalty. But right now, as a new player, and speaking for other new players I know, the XP rate is too high and significantly heightens the learning curve and therefore scares away new players on top of that.

There should be a bigger indication that without maxed resists and life or energy shield and damage mitigation started by late cruel/ merciless, you are going to be roflstomped by everything. There is no reason the penalty should be lower for deaths, just that there is a greater notice of what will occur if you don't prepare properly.

At the same time, this game is meant to be semi-community driven in those aspects. Want to play the game blind? Your character is gonna suck and you are going to rip. Period. If new players do their research they will know it is not D3 roflstomping everything without a care. Yes even following build guides they may die too repetitively but that would likely be due to inexperience and slow reactions. It will be better when they know how to roll gear or what is worth buying to up their defenses and effective life.

I will also say that a detection system to prevent exp loss on desync if in predictive and lag if in lockstep would be nice so that bullcrap like that doesn't lose anybody any experience but I'm sure somebody would find a way to abuse it immediately and bum rush the entire game to 100 in every standard league.

@nick66234

The problem with the statement "put yourself in new players shoes" is that this game was never really made or intended for "casual" or SC players that would complain about XP penalty, now if they is the direction GGG decides to go so be it, but it isn't the direction I would like to see the game go.


Honestly anyone that complains about the penalty pre 80 is just clueless, you can make up that completely in 1 map.

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goetzjam wrote:

@nick66234

The problem with the statement "put yourself in new players shoes" is that this game was never really made or intended for "casual" or SC players that would complain about XP penalty, now if they is the direction GGG decides to go so be it, but it isn't the direction I would like to see the game go.


Honestly anyone that complains about the penalty pre 80 is just clueless, you can make up that completely in 1 map.

This right here. Sure if I had a bad day dying while leveling is rage inducing but on a normal day, countless deaths in softcore before like level 83 for me specifically is just meh, over it. I am sure most level headed people act the same way on a daily basis.

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There should be a bigger indication that without maxed resists and life or energy shield and damage mitigation started by late cruel/ merciless, you are going to be roflstomped by everything. There is no reason the penalty should be lower for deaths, just that there is a greater notice of what will occur if you don't prepare properly.

At the same time, this game is meant to be semi-community driven in those aspects. Want to play the game blind? Your character is gonna suck and you are going to rip. Period. If new players do their research they will know it is not D3 roflstomping everything without a care. Yes even following build guides they may die too repetitively but that would likely be due to inexperience and slow reactions. It will be better when they know how to roll gear or what is worth buying to up their defenses and effective life.

I will also say that a detection system to prevent exp loss on desync if in predictive and lag if in lockstep would be nice so that bullcrap like that doesn't lose anybody any experience but I'm sure somebody would find a way to abuse it immediately and bum rush the entire game to 100 in every standard league.

I agree there should be a bigger indication. I had problems with that myself and so did my new playing friends. But to say that's the only problem is wild. What about trading? What about the learning curve that helps them achieve all these things? The fact is, it's extremely hard for all these guys to learn all this to help them (and cruel keeps coming up, I'm talking about merciless and end game maps XP loss FYI). I also think some kind of alternate penalty should be implemented if they decide to lower the XP loss rate. Possibly something to do with a penalty in quality or rarity of items, using currency for repairs, maybe a mix both. People will find flaws in this idea, and if I couldn't answer they'd use it as a defense against my request. But the fact is, this isn't our job. It's their job to think of new ideas that help new players progress and learn in PoE. And to say the XP loss isn't a problem at the top of this list is crazy. People seem to think that since they can't think of a alternate idea, that nothing can be done. I never meant to insinuate that my idea is perfect. I did mean to insinuate that something needs to be done though. Many people really may not give a damn since they're not new. But new players do. And if it gets in the way of expert players game quality then a solution needs to be found by the developers. Something needs to be done about it, I'm telling you, newer players have a major problem with this issue. If the fix effects expert players then a solution that's positive for both sides needs to be found.

As much as I support changes to lower difficulty, I don't have a problem with the exp penalty in this game. If there was no penalty then you pretty much can do "suicide boss runs" for Dominus/Malachai.

Also, you're not a "new player" if you're already level 90. A "new player" is someone who is around level 30.

@nick66234

I mean there are 3 parts to this:

Issue
Problem
Solution


The issue is the game is difficult to understand for new players.


The specific problem is because the difficulty is high the XP penalty is harsh.


Now you are only offering that they address the problem, rather then the issue. I much rather them address the issue then the problem, even though the "problem" can be addressed by a simple reduction of penalty, that doesn't make it the best or the right option.


As for trading, its literally never been easier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tWzBcWO0ak

3 min video that explains how to setup a shop. Anyone that has ever used any sort of searching tools in the past can use poe.trade hell he even has a walkthru on that.


Don't try to address the problem, address the issue. Addressing the problem only causes you to still have the issue and can create more problems.


I want the game to grow, but not at the expense of core designs and principles of the game, simply because people don't "get it" as quickly as they want.

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@nick66234

I mean there are 3 parts to this:

Issue
Problem
Solution


The issue is the game is difficult to understand for new players.


The specific problem is because the difficulty is high the XP penalty is harsh.


Now you are only offering that they address the problem, rather then the issue. I much rather them address the issue then the problem, even though the "problem" can be addressed by a simple reduction of penalty, that doesn't make it the best or the right option.


As for trading, its literally never been easier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tWzBcWO0ak

3 min video that explains how to setup a shop. Anyone that has ever used any sort of searching tools in the past can use poe.trade hell he even has a walkthru on that.


Don't try to address the problem, address the issue. Addressing the problem only causes you to still have the issue and can create more problems.


I want the game to grow, but not at the expense of core designs and principles of the game, simply because people don't "get it" as quickly as they want.

Well I don't think showing a video on how to do a trade guide says "well, there goes that- XP penalty rethinking is out the window". When I said that about trading, it was because I was specifically replying to a person's argument. I know how to trade, I know a lot. I've spent many hours in the game. And yet I still have problems with the XP penalty. At the moment I have a TS ranger that's doing great damage. I've progressed her further than ever, and I'm loving it. Yet I still can't take a good hit. My problem is obviously gear. But I'm still learning the process of building currency and trading for what I need, and making sure my gear works together correctly for attribute requirements etc. I'm still learning all the weapons and gear, and how all the passives and gear work together, and how to make my own build properly and optimize other people's builds so I can adjust them in case of attribute requirement problems etc. I could go on and on if I kept thinking is my true point with this. It takes a lot of time to know the game in and out, and just a little misinformation or lack of information can make things like XP penalties a big problem for some people.

And I agree with your issue/problem argument. But I just see things a bit differently. Really, the only way to fix the source problem is by simplifying the game. Which I don't think would help PoE. Which is why I'm pretty adamant about this. Because if newer players can get their characters higher level (I mean be able to push past a smaller XP penalty into the higher 80's) then they can do better maps more consistently by finding more gear. And they can get into some better maps by using levels to help progress them. In fact, another idea is to increase the XP penalty of death when you hit 90. Because the 80+ level skill points are important for newer players' progression into a better quality end game. I'm not saying this will completely fix newer players' problems. But I am saying this would be a huge step forward. And again, I'm not advocating for the particular changes I've talked about. I'm sure the developers could figure something out pretty quickly that will be a positive for all players. And I'm sure they could do it in a way that doesn't require a complete revamp of any feature.

And I might as well clear this up as well. I am talking about XP around 80+. It really doesn't take much to get your XP back below 80. Even newer players can overcome that fairly quickly. The problem tends to linger for newer players when it gets about 80+ though (which is also where a lot of much needed skill points come in).

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As much as I support changes to lower difficulty, I don't have a problem with the exp penalty in this game. If there was no penalty then you pretty much can do "suicide boss runs" for Dominus/Malachai.

Also, you're not a "new player" if you're already level 90. A "new player" is someone who is around level 30.

Firstly I never said remove the XP penalty. Also, a new player isn't someone who's around level 30. A new player is someone who is still learning the basics of the game. And the basics of this game are much more complicated than most others and require a larger time investment as well. You can disagree with that all you want, but the majority opinion matters most.