Player feedback on trading (both sides welcome)

"

You mean, what's wrong with a trading system where its visible part consists almost exclusively of people trying to rip you off?
Hmm...
I wonder...
-_-

Are you still going on about trade chat?

poe.trade list and can sort prices, if that was in game that would remove the "viability" part of the corrupted shitfest that is MOST trade chats.

"

It works for you. It doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for a lot of people. Whether it's because those players don't have the time (I hardly even have the time to do all my dailies), don't have the knowledge, because they are morons, or are allergic to trade. Whatever the reason, if the trading system is as mandatory as it is now and doesn't do what is necessary to cater to those players, then it's failing at being a good trading system.
Once again, when I was playing in WoW, at least I was a part of the economy without getting any negative feelings over it and even noticing it.

To be fair most of my wealth is NOT from shops but rather lucrative thinking with the atziri expansion. I don't care to look up the post I did, but a while back I posted how I came to have the wealth I do today. Most of my temp league builds are extremely budget gear, the only piece which I set forth to get almost every league no matter what I am playing is alpha howl because it is probably my fav mid/common unique.

I never played WoW or any MMO other then the failed idea that was STO, I don't care to get into details, but I am sick and tired of people suggesting this game should be or have this because WoW did. I was watching a streamer last night and he summed it up quite well, theres a reason why everyone plays WoW instead of the other MMOs, but players get bored when they realize its the same shit just different story, so why does "everyone" that played\plays WoW think their system is better suited for PoE then an ACTUAL TRADE SYSTEM, an AH isn't trading I cannot make that statement any clear then the words spoken. An AH by all definition is a trade system replacement and if the current system works for so many people, how come it can't work for you, specifically how could it not work for you if GGG added it into the game? Ultimately this is the answer you must face as nothing else is as relevant.

"

Most people don't have a guild and don't know your "popular trade channels". We are both already part of the most hardcore part of the population, simply coming to the forums. What about all the players that aren't?

Google is everyones best friend, but more importantly if GGG would add the current system into the game players could actually see first hand what it does. Plenty of people have youtube videos up, poe trade search results net poe.trade website, from there people can search what they want. Buying is never an issue IMO for a new or current player selling however like you said is the more difficult part.

"

I don't want to setup a shop

Then don't use those programs, you can easily post a handful of items you want with the correct tags to work with poe.trade without using them. If you don't even bother trying why should anyone care to change the system COMPLETELY because of you or anyone like you that doesn't care to put forth any effort.

It isn't like this requires rocket science either to do, maybe it is because I am more technical or solve issues on my own, but I don't think the game should be changed for people that are unwilling to do anything on their part.

"

I want to sell the few decent items I find without getting the feeling that I am being ripped off.

Are you going to use said item now or in the near future, if not any amount of currency gained is better then sitting in your stash and not being useful to your build(s). If you sell a 10c item for 5c it isn't the end of the world, eventually you will learn what items are worth what. It isn't like this game just came out a few months ago, people have learned this over time. As you try new builds or learn new things you too will become better at pricing items, but ultimately the best guide out there is to do a quick search and see similar items, if you think its good check, if it isn't good enough to warrant a check of your time, why should you gain anything from getting a "fair" price for it.

"

There are certainly some rare items that some players would value at a few exalts that I vendored.

I've done the same thing, this is something everyone does at least once in their PoE career. This is suppose to be a social game, if you don't want to do the social part of it, then why are you concerned with benefiting from a social aspect of it?

"

I would have been happy to sell those even a few chaos.

Then start looking at random rares and see if anything seems "good" for other builds. Their are guides out there on how to price rares or stats to look for together, if you put forth any effort you can find them.

"

Now, for uniques, I make the effort to look at their prices, and anytime I try to sell one, people are trying to get me to go to unreasonably low prices. Not that I would mind some actual bartering, but that they seriously expect me to accept being ripped off.

If you are trying to sell unqiues in trade chat of course you are going to get low ball offers, people like to flip items. Best thing about uniques are they typically are set in price ranges dictated by the poe.trade listings. If an alpha howl for example is 4ex on poe.trade, I would expect offers around 2.5ex if you listed for sell in trade chat. Why, because the chance that someone is looking to buy that item in that trade chat at that time and wanted to pay the full 4ex price is extremely low, if they wanted to pay full price they would have already purchased the one on poe.trade, so naturally any unqiue you list in trade chat is worth LESS then the cheapest comparable one on poe.trade. If you can give a specific example we could address it, better yet if you find the text in your client folder it might help to discuss it further. Even if you posted the alpha howl at 3.5 ex (to move fast) I wouldn't personally expect to get that unless I know its a hot item that people really want, although in this case the price sort of dictates it is at least somewhat popular.

I don't want to delve into an argument against flipping because I worry it would get lengthy and distract from serious discussion about the actual nature of the trade system. I don't think the system is bad because of flippers, but I do think they're a moral evil that exists because of flaws in the trade system (see economic ideas of information asymmetry and moral hazard in market failures). I find arguments about the value of their "services" pretentious, but I don't think they would be so rampant or successful in a better system.

On that note, we're still talking about whether the current system is perfect or can be improved upon. How good it is currently is up for debate, but I think any reasonable person in this forum has to acknowledge some things about it could be improved; GGG at least thinks this or they wouldn't have it slated for future development. Mr.T (sorry, this is how I'm going to refer to you from now on) brings up two sentiments I see having weight:

"

MrTremere wrote:

And please, we need to get rid of this "you didn't do your job finding the value of the item" bullshit. This oozes of "I am in the right for ripping you off". I am sure there are players out there making good profit without being total dicks.

The sentiment here can be expressed in a lot of different ways. The range is from "oops, why did I sell that mirror when I was a noob in the game" to "eat my market knowledge, Bitch!" This sentiment is important because a lot of PoE players feel victimized by the current system rather than just regretful at their own mistakes. Surely future improvements should aim to reduce this experience.

"

MrTremere wrote:

Once again, when I was playing in WoW, at least I was a part of the economy without getting any negative feelings over it and even noticing it.

I don't think Mr. T's purpose here is to say PoE should be just like WoW, but rather a comparison of different dispositions created from interacting with different systems. Because they're different types of games, WoW's system won't work here. Some people do want to not even notice an economy as they participate or abstain from it, however. I think the pure self-founders may be in this category. Even if PoE aims to make economy a conscientious and engaging part of the game, excluding this self-found group, the real question is what fundamental aspects of the trade machine allow for so much negative experience? We're not looking for specific "I hate this or that" types of things like flipping because they're likely just a product of more fundamental design.

"

The sentiment here can be expressed in a lot of different ways. The range is from "oops, why did I sell that mirror when I was a noob in the game" to "eat my market knowledge, Bitch!" This sentiment is important because a lot of PoE players feel victimized by the current system rather than just regretful at their own mistakes.

"

Surely future improvements should aim to reduce this experience.

Care to elaborate on how or why you think they should address people specifically making mistakes? I mean this game doesn't have a go back button, if you accidentally vendor your item, you can't get it back its lost forever, so why would a trade transaction be any different?

"

I don't think Mr. T's purpose here is to say PoE should be just like WoW, but rather a comparison of different dispositions created from interacting with different systems. Because they're different types of games, WoW's system won't work here. Some people do want to not even notice an economy as they participate or abstain from it, however. I think the pure self-founders may be in this category. Even if PoE aims to make economy a conscientious and engaging part of the game, excluding this self-found group, the real question is what fundamental aspects of the trade machine allow for so much negative experience?

I think the bold part is important.

"

We're not looking for specific "I hate this or that" types of things like flipping because they're likely just a product of more fundamental design.

Suchas?

I don't actually think they need to address people regretting mistakes, but feeling victimized surely won't help the game's health in the long run. Occasionally someone might hold it against the game or GGG if they make a mistake, but I think that's an exception.


Some of the fundamental game features of the trading machine have been touched on. I think Scrotie's page 7 post, which I then described as the difference between market difficulty and process difficulty is a true feature of the game. You've addressed it multiple times as it is related to QoL improvements and their affect on economy. He advocates for competing interests (game balance means not everyone wants the same things) as a better way to control the economy than process difficulty. An auction house makes the process very easy, but possibly not in a desirable way. Currently, in my estimation, PoE has a very high level of process difficulty for sellers, and still more than it needs for buyers (keeping in mind that just about everyone is at some time a buyer and seller). Some of that is mediated by 3rd parties, but credit for that should surely not be given to GGG.

Another game feature of great interest concerns the relationship between drop rates and gameplay balance. Because items have different levels of strength, and the majority of the game is not balanced around the highest levels, making every item available in an instant trivializes content. Conversely, making items so rare that you never see them makes any end-game content unreasonably difficult. I'm not 100% sure yet, but it appears that gameplay difficulty and drop rates have an inverse relationship that rests on GGG's desired level of balance with other intersecting values having an impact. I felt we were on to something in talking about the game being balanced in terms of playthroughs. How many playthroughs the game should be balanced around is a matter of preference, but if GGG doesn't already have an idea of what their preference is in terms of playthroughs, they probably should. After defining what they want a playthrough to be (to level 100 1 time? 2 times? 4 times to 80? etc), they can make a lot of progress toward what an average player would expect over that lifetime in terms of drop rates and the affect that would have on the overall difficulty of one playthrough. The intersecting values of what level of content should be reached and inter-item balance can all be umbrella'd under their definition of a playthrough (does it include Atziri? should a playthrough include a perfect character with something like a Shav's/Soultaker? etc). We can also use this kind of framework to talk about the trading system in its own right as well as the affects it has on the total see-saw model created by gameplay difficulty vs. drop rates resting on definition of a playthrough. This could help people place their preferences on a scale in a meaningful way and standardize references to the trade system.

For example, so far in the thread the self-found vs. trade vs. limiting difficulty and methods of trade debate can be addressed within the idea of a playthrough. Self-found represents a barrier between players, limiting a playthrough to each individual person's experience (though as mentioned, not as yet limiting them to one game character's experience). The current system limits playthroughs by creating leagues (temporary transference between character and player playthroughs not accessible by previous playthroughs) and by not facilitating trade very well (limitations of trade chat, forums, 3rd party necessity etc). An auction house is seen as dangerous because it further removes barriers between the experience of each playthrough, allowing items to flow freely between each players playthroughs at a rapid pace. Subjective preferences then place themselves along the spectrum for reference, and can better see the affect that preference would have on the model as a whole.

This isn't a perfect model, but it addresses the fundamental design of the game that we're trying to better understand. Hopefully it facilitates better understanding. That was a lengthy response to "Suchas?", but Mr. T deserves the time.

I can't upload pictures at work, so you'll all have to live without my paint drawing of a see-saw with gameplay difficulty and drop rates on either side resting on the fulcrum of Definition of a Playthrough.

Also, an interesting afterthought, part of the benefit of currently allowing transference between characters may be that most people never fully achieve what GGG defines as a full playthrough. In this way shared stash currently acts as a way to make gameplay easier for most players.

Im sorry for not reading most of this, just a little annoyed and i need to just let it out here
the trade system is just horrible...

1. the inabillity to send pms to offline users is just stupid
2. the noticeboard is just a pain in the ass, especially because partys disappear from it and you always have to refresh every 2 minutes and are unable to do anything else, because otherwise your party will be gone from it
3. from watching the chat i get eye cancer

what i propose:
1. make it possible to pm players when offline
2. have an active trading forum not just some threads where you can search through 10000 items
3. probably highly discussed: 1-click-buy auctionhouse wich automaticly transfers items/currency

imagine it wasnt for poetrade (tyvm for this amazing site) what would ggg do? trading system would be worst in multiplayer-game history...

"

becksexpert wrote:

...
1. the inabillity to send pms to offline users is just stupid
2. the noticeboard is just a pain in the ass, especially because partys disappear from it and you always have to refresh every 2 minutes and are unable to do anything else, because otherwise your party will be gone from it
3. from watching the chat i get eye cancer

what i propose:
1. make it possible to pm players when offline
2. have an active trading forum not just some threads where you can search through 10000 items
3. probably highly discussed: 1-click-buy auctionhouse wich automaticly transfers items/currency

imagine it wasnt for poetrade (tyvm for this amazing site) what would ggg do? trading system would be worst in multiplayer-game history...

1. I slightly agree, if a user is offline or AFK it would be nice if the in game message system could support "mail", preferably even tie in with the forum PM system.

2. Parties only disappear from the message board if it becomes full (party that is) or if you go to a zone that isn't tied to that board. For example start a party in act 3 merciless and go to your hideout.

3. Serious time limits should be in place in trade chat, if everyone was limited to posting in each trade channel multiple items on 30 second time limit that would be amazing. That said trade chat IMO is fairly pointless in the grand scheme of trading.



Replies to your suggestions:

1. Yes, although you could argue that you can PM those players on the forums instead of ingame.

2. Do you have an example of an "active trading forum" from a previous game you played that you like?

3. Yes a 1 click AH has been discussed, it IMO has no place in PoE, gear aquisition and time spent selling items need to be balanced in such a way that automated "buying/selling" items should never be allowed. Worth noting here that if #3 suggestion happened nothing else would be necessary but the downsides (IMO) far out-way the positives.


If it wasn't for poe.trade GGG would have been forced to do something about trading, this argument goes way back to my original post of why do something the community will do for you for free? This is especially true for indie or semi-indie game companies.

I would like an auction style trading system, the current trading system is why I take long long breaks from Pathofexile, to see what the next major update is, play it through and than take another break. The current trading system is just too boring and tedious for me. I avoid trading all together because of it.

"

Biznits wrote:

I don't want to delve into an argument against flipping [snip] but I don't think they would be so rampant or successful in a better system.

I agree with this part. I think flipping is a good thing, but I can only say this in the same sense of, for example, "poe.trade is a good thing" -- as a third-party filling a gap in the game. It is only good in the context of GGG failing to step up in the first place. Although I'm not 100% sure it would be worth the development cost, if GGG's money were no object the situation would definitely be better if there was less of a gap to be filled in the first place... which would marginalize flippers and poe.trade.

Basically, flipping is like an elevated white blood cell count. It's a good thing, but only within the context of something bad happening. Another way to look at it is: as a symptom of a greater disease. Flipping as an economy's natural, market-forces defense against inconvenient UI and similar frustrations.

---------

One of the peculiarities with Diablo 3's influence on the genre is that the term "auction house" strangely has nothing to do with actual auctions. "Buyout house" would have been a more appropriate term. Path of Exile actually would benefit from an auction house, but emphaticaly not from a buyout house.

[moving extra stuff to new post on next page]