Ondar's Guile nerf

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Rusery wrote:

I see that these are punishing but no one here has touched the fact that i bashed AOE dps here and it shows. AOE dps shouldn't be the answer to everyones problems. If you plan on speccing into a skill that does such massive damage to everything in a large area you should be punished heavily by something, anything to make you think twice about one dimensional playstyles.

I understand that, but unfortunately PoE basically forces us all to play AoE because of the sheer number of mobs - if we do single-target skills or sacrifice too much DPS (in HC many people use the skill tree for defense and get DPS by doing stuff like stacking auras/crit, which GGG does not like) then we sacrifice farm speed in comparison to other builds. Maybe GGG should work on this problem, too, but it's a far, far larger and more fundamental issue than the question of Ondar's (Also, I worry about them slowing down the game too much. More difficulty is one thing, but more time requirements in a game that already demands 1000s of hours is not something I'm OK with at all. Time doesn't equal difficulty).

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Rusery wrote:

In the end the keystones are all a huge mess in my opinion. They do too much positive and they all should have some kind of major negative to make them totally niche and build defining rather than stacking to add to your character. Ondars was a good step in the right direction because it probably wasn't meant for melee characters at all.

I agree with you about Keystone design in general, I just think the specific penalty on Ondar's is too much. If it's to remain as is (20% less chance of evading melee, I believe) then the benefit needs to go back up a bit (50% more chance of evading ranged, or something). I'm not married to these numbers. Just a matter of balancing properly.

Ondar's guile, in 1.3, is a far better node for melees users than for distant chars.

A distant char will just kill monsters at distance and move at the next screen.
Melee char will run to the monster, therefore he moves his screen and he will be attacked by projectile monsters which were outside of the screen previously, before the movement.

The awakening version is crap right now, pointless, no sense. It becomes dangerous for ranged AND melee users !


So here is my idea !

+50% chance to evade attacks
100% reduced stun recovery
50% reduced Stun Threshold
Stun recovery has no effect


Yes, attacks.

so it's the opposite of unwavering stance and iron reflex together.

But when we do not evade an attack we are stunned and stuck forever. If we take 1000 damage with a life of 4000, we will be stuck for 0.7 second!

This change will also work against block, because whenever you block you can be stunned, and with this change the stun triggers more often for a longer time.



Of course we can tweak the numbers, it's only a concept.








anyway, i believe Keystones should ALWAYS be positive without downsides. The downside should be the nodes spend to travel in the tree.

You are a templar? you want ondar's guile? it's a long way to go!
You are a sorceress, you want MoM? good luck!

you are a scion, you want vaal pact? Easy! it's how it was designed.

A shadow with avatar of fire? still doable... With blood magic? doable too, and needed for low life!


The problem is not the keystones but the synergy between them and some items, blood magic keystone is broken because of the low life/shav mechanic... otherwise it's kinda weak, the support gem has more potential.

ondar 1.3 is OP, ok.

acro is fine atm, MoM is good but never used sadly, EB/CI are not broken and not niche... vaal pact has it's use too.

Avatar of fire is somehow under powered, maybe with an oro's WED added lightning +added cold +cold to fire +wrath +anger + herald thunder ice build ...... & Abyssus? x_x

I WILL TRY IT FUK YES! :D

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Rusery wrote:

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We don't "need" to do any such thing. I respect that's the way you'd like to play, but the biggest problem on forums is not people whining about reflect, it's people demanding that the game be changed to suit what they'd personally do if they were to design a game - to the point of changing the genre, even (not saying you're asking for that, but some folks do)!

Okay, i stepped too far with the need comment but lets be real here. Anything regarding death really boils down to hardcore play and that HC playstyle is built around challenge. Now when people demand the game changed to suit their own preference its no good, but considering this game was a lot harder than it is now i believe somethings got to give difficulty wise. ~(IMHO)~

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The problem with reflect and other aspects of this game is that those elements are punishing. Think about all of the insane damage bosses whose spells border on the one-hit kills (EG jungle valley's spider boss who will basically one-shot any eva character with his ethereal knives), outright one-hit kills (Uber Atziri), devourer packs (would be nice to see them burrowing underground, or right when they're about to pop up), and so on.

I see that these are punishing but no one here has touched the fact that i bashed AOE dps here and it shows. AOE dps shouldn't be the answer to everyones problems. If you plan on speccing into a skill that does such massive damage to everything in a large area you should be punished heavily by something, anything to make you think twice about one dimensional playstyles.

The second bit about the devs moving toward a "HAHA youre dead" is probably being a little too harsh on their balance team. It seems when they nerf things they do it hard in order to force the majority of players to abandon it and move into the next best thing and let the creatives handle the leftovers to try and make it "work". (im looking at you EB).

In the end the keystones are all a huge mess in my opinion. They do too much positive and they all should have some kind of major negative to make them totally niche and build defining rather than stacking to add to your character. Ondars was a good step in the right direction because it probably wasn't meant for melee characters at all.

If devs want to punish people for using aoe skills, then...

THEY SHOULDN'T BE MAKING AN ARPG HACK AND SLASH GAME.

The entire appeal of ARPGs is to mow through tons of mobs, find cool loot, and fight mechanically challenging bosses.

Instead, what we get is "most of your gameplay is boring except for the few tough enemies that kill you in one second in ways that are neither intuitive nor telegraphed".

Yes, alt+F4 exists. Yes, town portals exist. Yes, if one wants to be a sissy, one can stay alive.

However, what Rory specifically said on ZiggyD's Q&A stream, when asked about tough boss fights is: "we don't want Path of Exile to be 'stay out of the red circle to not die'", which IMO, is a flat out admission of "we need to have some way of killing the player no matter what".

Well, any idiot can design a way to kill a player no matter what. Occasionally, spawn some obscene mob (or group of mobs) that has some spell that does an obscene amount of damage. A well-designed game should make the player feel as though the player died because of a mistake, not because "oops, I just got chunked in three seconds" (Spinner of False Hope, Uber Atziri flameblast, Dominus lightning stream, plenty of rogue exiles, reflect, etc.)

And to just hose defenses every step of the way because "oh, it became too ubiquitous", well...was Ondar's Guile ubiquitous when Iron Reflexes was good? Nope. Nobody used it then, and everyone used IR. Then IR got hosed multiple times (lost all dex-based eva->df, then I believe took a hit to percentage conversion?), so people went to shield + eva. Then along comes GGG and hoses that. And on top of that, Ondar's Guile.

So now, here's my question to GGG...

How the heck is someone supposed to even build a melee ranger anymore? You can't use shields if you want to use acro. You can't use Ondar's Guile, period...IR is junk...so what defenses is a ranger supposed to use now?

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IlyaK1986 wrote:

So now, here's my question to GGG...

How the heck is someone supposed to even build a melee ranger anymore? You can't use shields if you want to use acro. You can't use Ondar's Guile, period...IR is junk...so what defenses is a ranger supposed to use now?

you can use a shield with acro, you will have 1/3 less block chance but you gain a layer of dodge. You can go full dodge, or you can forget dodge and go full block. I think more effective than those methods is going lightning coil acrobatics while staying hard right on the tree or going hybrid armour and evasion while speccing from right to left across the bottom.

Ive been playing with my melee ranger builds on the offline tree planner for the new tree and they are going to be very powerful. Ondars is a loss for sure, I wont be using it, but we have fortify now. Im far more concerned about the changes that stop us using grace + hatred with a mana leech build without using a lvl3/4 enlighten, that to me is much more of a death sentence for a large number of evasion melee builds who dont have access to that gem.

Disclaimer: I play mostly selffound, OG was never "needed" as reflect protection.

I can't see myself using the new OG.
To me it wasn't much more than the laugh-at-Tentacle-Miscreations Keystone.

Nerfing the projectile part alone might have pushed it in the maybe-worth-a-point territory.

The new melee punishment while buffing the projectile part (to tripple) would have made it into a Keystone I'd never touch, thinking that it's for better players than me or for builds I don't play or just a noob trap.

This is what happens when you have mass casuals that whine on forums about skills / mechanics they think are "OP" and GGG listens to them.

This is what happens when you balance around Uber Atziri.

Any build that used a mechanic that made Uber Atziri fight easier received a lot of hate on the forums. Thus commence the whines and forum posts for nerfs. And thus bringeth the nerfs.

It happened with low-life (twice)
It happened with SRS
It happened with CoC
It happened with Puncture
It happened to max resistances on the tree

Latest casualties include Ondar's Guile thanks to all those Rangers using Ondar's Guile to have an easy time at Uber. How dare they!

Another casualty includes Immortal Call - no GGG does not want you to run around with perma-IC anymore. Sorry.

I suspect upcoming casualty will be cyclone because everyone knows how easy it is for Facebreaker cyclone to get insane damage and do Uber.


As many have mentioned the new Ondar's Guile is useless for both ranged and melee users now. Especially for melee. So much for promoting build diversity, seems GGG wants Rangers to only play bow now so we can all enjoy Ranger forum filled with the same copy-paste Tornado Shot guides.

And the weirdest thing about all of this is that it doesn't look like GGG is nerfing Tornado Shot

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

the offline tree planner for the new tree

Where do you find this?

Tested the new "ondars" which is "arrow dancing" and have dropped it. Not worth taking at this point for my Ranger.