Ondar's Guile nerf
" its not really analogous at all. One is mitigation one is evasion so you cant use "effective health" barometer. If you were comparing armor to resits you could otherwise comparison is useless here is why. if 95% projectiles evaded all it takes is one to get through to one shot you and reflect you coming in at 100% damage. if 95% elemental resists its like 5% damage over time and you wont ever get one shot. (exception is uber atziri double flame blast with its massive penetration) -------- this is why even with OP odnars you need a life leeching and or phys mitigation component as bow ranger if you want to not die. My proposed - 30-50% increased evasion would have 1/3 or 1/4 projectiles coming in at full power necessitating even more mit/leech and be balanced. Git R Dun! Last edited by Aim_Deep#3474 on Apr 28, 2015, 11:06:04 AM
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" Evasion is mitigation, it's just long-term mitigation that doesn't strictly mirror the short term. It's spikier than armor or res, but ultimately it is comparable. As long as you can survive one single hit it's a fine analogy, and my point still stands perfectly. " Except they're not particularly limited in the least, they just generally require not being a lazy one-button character. Last edited by Shppy#6163 on Apr 28, 2015, 3:14:30 PM
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" 95% of my crit casters already needed Vaal Pact/Acuity to deal with reflect simply because you will die to reflect even with 78% resists. I'm not complaining about it as I'm working "around" the reflect mechanic by simply using Vaal Pact. If you want to be reflect "save" you got options: - stop critting so hard - get more armour - get Vaal Pact/Acuity/higher leech rate - switch to an attack that doesn't oneshot you once you see a reflect pack - don't run reflect maps Ondar's was too strong, maybe the nerf needs a little more balancing but it's going in the right direction. Edit for the publords: Why not simply wait until release and copy one of the many cookie-cutter builds that will arise shortly after 2.0 and roll with them? I for my part will gladly accept any changes GGG puts in and have fun theorycrafting new builds. Last edited by HeavensRejected#4199 on Apr 28, 2015, 4:22:38 PM
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Okay what I'd like to know is this: what defense are rangers supposed to use now?
Iron Reflexes got nerfed into the ground because it was too ubiquitous. Now Ondar's Guile gets nerfed into the ground because it's too ubiquitous. The problem is that of course rangers will use Ondar's guile because it's the only defense available to them. However, the proposed change means "herp derp, you get instagimped by devourers now". So what exactly are rangers supposed to do for defense now? |
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Dodge, spell dodge, daresso's defiance or lightning coil, darkray vectors. Here's what we could use in 2.0, especially since frenzy charges are getting buffed (they needed it tbh). And Ondar's Guile of course. We will still use it despite its nerf ; at least range will do.
And then dodge will also eventually be nerfed because everyone will use it. Yes it's sad, as sad as casters defenses. btw, none of you had 95% to evade their own projectile on reflect. Learn how evasion and reflect work ;) Ranger builds list: /917964 When two witches watch two watches, which witch watches which watch? If the witches watching watches watch the same watch while you watch which witch watches which watch, they switch watches; then, the watch switching witches watch which watch you watch. Watching witches watch watches is not for the faint of heart... Last edited by Panini_aux_olives#1967 on May 19, 2015, 5:11:43 PM
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So the only thing you're worried about is reflect. The nerf was aimed at making ondars a choice, not a requirement. Reflect to those who stack DPS is the #1 killer and as intended you need to actually think about building your character instead of stacking AOE dps enough to one shot yourself on a reflect pack. Im sick of seeing these reflect topics, and its the main poison in these ARPGs. People flock to the most AOE dps and call it a day, until one day, when something disrupts their zombie-like grind fest they moan about it.
Slightly off topic, we need this game to be harder. People shouldn't be making lvl 100 in 3 weeks or less. Its a clear indication that the games gotten too easy and we need to help push this game into an almost rogue-like playstyle where its extremely hard to survive, but its hella fun getting as far as you can and rewarding to make it any major length. |
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I don't see where the choice is. Archers will still use it, all of them that use evasion. It's just that reflect and melee will be more dangerous. It's a simple numeric nerf to archer defenses.
Melee could benefit of Ondar's too, but this is less of a requirement. Melee builds have other means of defense. Ranger builds list: /917964 When two witches watch two watches, which witch watches which watch? If the witches watching watches watch the same watch while you watch which witch watches which watch, they switch watches; then, the watch switching witches watch which watch you watch. Watching witches watch watches is not for the faint of heart... Last edited by Panini_aux_olives#1967 on May 19, 2015, 5:37:57 PM
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" We don't "need" to do any such thing. I respect that's the way you'd like to play, but the biggest problem on forums is not people whining about reflect, it's people demanding that the game be changed to suit what they'd personally do if they were to design a game - to the point of changing the genre, even (not saying you're asking for that, but some folks do)! Back on topic, Ondar nerf is far too drastic. I admit the possibility that very skilled players will be able to make use of it if they can avoid all melee hits, including somehow from leapers and flickerers, but it's basically useless now for everyone else. Doubling evasion chance was insane, mandatory, and way way too OP in addition to countering GGG's stated goals for big skill nodes like this. But the new penalty to melee evasion is a serious risk for any character to take, and the fact that most won't be able to take it will make more builds more vulnerable to mechanics such as reflect. I do not understand a mechanic that exists to kill your character if you do a lot of damage - this "soft cap" on DPS is one of the strangest aspects of PoE, imo. I'm not saying reflect shouldn't exist - it totally should - and I'm not saying we should be able to play this game like a zombie - we totally SHOULDN'T - but weird eccentricities like reflect using the character's own accuracy against you (which breaks the evasion formula because monsters don't have nearly that much accuracy) are really what's causing the biggest problem here in the first place. Yes, I know some builds can guard against reflect, but it's a further tightening of the metagame and defense mechanics into a tiny few options, killing build diversity. This is what GGG claims to be against, but they further it constantly. I don't claim to have a specific solution to how the reflect mechanic should work without forcing everyone to use Ondar's or Vaal Pact or Acuity (which few people can afford), and perhaps those defenses should be mandatory if your toon is to be able to run reflect maps (but not mobs), but I do believe it should be adjusted. We're all in this leaky boat together, people. Last edited by demon9675#2961 on May 19, 2015, 5:43:23 PM
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" The problem with reflect and other aspects of this game is that those elements are punishing. Think about all of the insane damage bosses whose spells border on the one-hit kills (EG jungle valley's spider boss who will basically one-shot any eva character with his ethereal knives), outright one-hit kills (Uber Atziri), devourer packs (would be nice to see them burrowing underground, or right when they're about to pop up), and so on. ZiggyD asked Rory this sort of question in one of his videos, and Rory gave a completely straw-man response in that he didn't want PoE to be a purely mechanical game of "stand outside of the red circle to not die", but I think what people actually want is to have a mechanical way of actually fighting against things such as the Jungle Valley boss, of not having to facetank 5000 physical damage spells, or other such obscene requirements that make edge-case uniques like lightning coil mandatory. At the end of the day, I feel that the devs are trying to come as close to the "LOL YOU DIED! HA HA!" line as possible without crossing over into "well, how was I supposed to play against that?" territory. The problem is that in many cases, the best solution is to simply avoid content, instead of playing it. If designing content that's best avoided isn't garbage design, I don't know what is. |
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" Okay, i stepped too far with the need comment but lets be real here. Anything regarding death really boils down to hardcore play and that HC playstyle is built around challenge. Now when people demand the game changed to suit their own preference its no good, but considering this game was a lot harder than it is now i believe somethings got to give difficulty wise. ~(IMHO)~ " I see that these are punishing but no one here has touched the fact that i bashed AOE dps here and it shows. AOE dps shouldn't be the answer to everyones problems. If you plan on speccing into a skill that does such massive damage to everything in a large area you should be punished heavily by something, anything to make you think twice about one dimensional playstyles. The second bit about the devs moving toward a "HAHA youre dead" is probably being a little too harsh on their balance team. It seems when they nerf things they do it hard in order to force the majority of players to abandon it and move into the next best thing and let the creatives handle the leftovers to try and make it "work". (im looking at you EB). In the end the keystones are all a huge mess in my opinion. They do too much positive and they all should have some kind of major negative to make them totally niche and build defining rather than stacking to add to your character. Ondars was a good step in the right direction because it probably wasn't meant for melee characters at all. |
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