Elemental Proliferation is fine.

I'll respond to this one:

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How about we go to the root here. Pick one of the complaints about prolif and tell me why it isn't bad. Dealers choice, anyone, just give an actual reason so we can maybe actually discuss the topic at hand. Maybe come to a compromise as it seems much of the push back is a fear it will be nerfed too much.

The main thing that people worry about when they hear "nerf Ele Prolif" is that it will be nerfed too harshly, or in a bad way (like just raw damage reduction). So the fear that GGG won't adjust it appropriately is real, and is enough reason for people to be against it. If Goetzjam's reaction to MA and my reaction to Flame Blast are even remotely indicative of how players react, it actually is better to leave alone than to nerf--especially when those changes come mid season.

That said, there are a few points about Ele Prolif I want to address.

1. Prolif'ing off corpses seems more like a bug than intended design, and doesn't really even make sense thematically. Removing this aspect of it would technically be considered a "nerf," but I personally would see it more as a bug fix.

2. Prolif should check against each new target's relevant resistance by using the initial hit damage. If an attack hits for 800 fire damage on a mob with 20 fire resist, it will probably ignite that mob for quite a lot of damage. But the prolif effect should check against the next mob, who has 60 fire resist, and apply a less severe ignite effect. Otherwise it's like saying I would get drunk after just three shots of rum just because my girlfriend can't handle her liquor; there's no logic behind it. Again, technically a "nerf," but realistically seems more like a bug fix.

3. Applying a raw damage nerf to the gem is counter-productive since status effects are a factor of damage against max health/resists. Lowering the damage would reduce the chance to cause the status effect, and that would leave you with less proliferations. The gem is intended to spread status effects, not prevent them!

4. I don't think the discussion about Ele Prolif can exist in a void the way it largely has so far. Its problems are largely associated with bigger picture issues that exist in the game such as power differentials between melee vs ranged, crit vs non-crit, burn vs shock vs freeze, OP uniques vs "trash" uniques, etc. Failure to examine all of these in the proper context as they relate to "balance" results in a discussion that cannot be considered serious by any who could effect such changes.

Rex are you two people? A bunch of dismissive, quick responses in which you seem to not care to put any effort into the discussion, then posts like this. It's odd to say the least.

Goetz is for the MA nerf, and from the sounds of it wants a completely removal of the mechanics. I'm the one protesting the degree to which MA was nerfed.

Also I don't think it's good to avoid nerfing anything for the fear of it being ruined. GGG does have a heavy hand too often, but if the minor adjustments to PVP are any indication, they are willing to fine tune shit rather than bash it out of existence.

1. TBH I actually like it working off corpses. A fire spreading will spread regardless if what's on fire is alive. It doesn't fit most of the game, it's kinda illogical but it's pretty cool. I can't strongly defend it and if the nerf involved this I'd understand. But I would like to keep it.

2. Totally agree and I think this hasn't changed because of how burn works. As the highest burn wins, the lower res mob's burn will constantly be trying to override the higher res mob's damage. I'm not sure if they can code around this but what happens with the 3rd guy with 40 fire res. Is his burn based off the 20 or the 60? What if he's not near the 20, but near the 60? I'm sure it's possible, but seems like it would be hell to figure out.

3. Again, a flat DR would probably require either duration passives to be easier to get, like combined with something useful not stand alone or like double if stand alone. And/or a damage increase to make non-prolif ailments possible. Like scrotie said, have a choice between high damage against a few, or lower damage against many. Right now it's max damage possible against max enemies possibly, it's a no brainer.

4. The problem with this is prolif is so strong that's it's making bad melee skills usable (shield charge), ice based burn builds probably wouldn't exist (or rather make sense) with a weaker prolif and I'm not pulling up many uniques it carries. It's because of this that a small nerf followed by further rebalancing is probably a good idea. Very few gems are ingrained into so many builds like prolif is. I don't think it's unlikely to think changing prolif means changing 25-50% of the game's current builds in some way.

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

The main thing that people worry about when they hear "nerf Ele Prolif" is that it will be nerfed too harshly, or in a bad way (like just raw damage reduction). So the fear that GGG won't adjust it appropriately is real, and is enough reason for people to be against it. If Goetzjam's reaction to MA and my reaction to Flame Blast are even remotely indicative of how players react, it actually is better to leave alone than to nerf--especially when those changes come mid season.

I am against a mid-season change to Prolif, but it totally deserves a nerfing after.

But not a nerfing into the ground. I hope to still see builds post-nerf which use the "small-AoE fire damage, big-AoE burn" model. I just think it needs a numerical toning down which has, up until now, mostly been unfairly attributed to parent skills, causing them to be nerfed when Prolif has been the real problem.

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

That said, there are a few points about Ele Prolif I want to address.

1. Prolif'ing off corpses seems more like a bug than intended design, and doesn't really even make sense thematically. Removing this aspect of it would technically be considered a "nerf," but I personally would see it more as a bug fix.

2. Prolif should check against each new target's relevant resistance by using the initial hit damage. If an attack hits for 800 fire damage on a mob with 20 fire resist, it will probably ignite that mob for quite a lot of damage. But the prolif effect should check against the next mob, who has 60 fire resist, and apply a less severe ignite effect. Otherwise it's like saying I would get drunk after just three shots of rum just because my girlfriend can't handle her liquor; there's no logic behind it. Again, technically a "nerf," but realistically seems more like a bug fix.

As I said earlier, I completely agree with #2, and although I disagree with #1 I think #2 is more important, and thus compromising on #1 may be required.

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

3. Applying a raw damage nerf to the gem is counter-productive since status effects are a factor of damage against max health/resists. Lowering the damage would reduce the chance to cause the status effect, and that would leave you with less proliferations. The gem is intended to spread status effects, not prevent them!

I kind of agree with the bolded part. However, ignite always happens for a 4-second base duration, so it is worth noting that your argument is void against ignite.

And Prolif needs a burning damage penalty. Right now it is like a GMP without a damage penalty. It is why Flameblast is usually dabbed as a pseudo-single-target rather than expanded to later stages.

In terms of shock, part of me wants to say the penalty should be "shocked enemies take x% less extra damage." But that seems silly-hard to code.

As far as freeze goes, I'm torn. On the one hand, a struggling build getting zero freeze due to a Prolif penalty seems lame. On the other hand, a well-tuned build freezing everything without any penalty also seems lame. I would hope to find a penalty for freeze Prolif which hits the latter, doesn't hit the former too hard, and allows room for a buff to base, non-Prolif freeze duration.

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

4. I don't think the discussion about Ele Prolif can exist in a void the way it largely has so far. Its problems are largely associated with bigger picture issues that exist in the game such as power differentials between melee vs ranged, crit vs non-crit, burn vs shock vs freeze, OP uniques vs "trash" uniques, etc. Failure to examine all of these in the proper context as they relate to "balance" results in a discussion that cannot be considered serious by any who could effect such changes.

Well, yeah, but let's rein in the scope a bit. There's a big picture, sure, but discussions need focus.

I think MA/BA minions needed to be nerfed. I think since it was a new skill acting in unpredictable ways, a mid-league change was justified.

In terms of the specifics of the nerf (80% less Life, 80% damage mitigation), I have serious doubts. That's a strange mechanic to introduce. I probably would have just changed the "increased Minion Damage" on the two gems to "increased Minion Projectile Damage" and let it keep its high Life - a much less drastic nerf which would still make MI considerably less powerful on them, especially on Empowered versions.

no-burn-from-corpses should easily 'fix' ele prolif gem

currently prolif has 2 damage scaling vectors

A) higher 'real' chance to ignite. hitting 10 mobs, with only one igniting the entire pack (more or less) is ignited
B) maximizing damage by 'highest burn overwrites lower ones'

and it double dips on AOE
1) range of initial prolif
2) dead zone created by corpses

removing burning corpses directly cuts only [2] while indirectly inreasing build cost of achieving A and B. and removing one of the strongest burn builds advantages - effortless killing of mobs with stupid AI walking into burning corpses. i bet like 50% of all burned mobs were the collateral ones

i do not think that there is any 'fair' way of applying number tweaks.



i do not mention other elements as these are pretty much irrelevant (that is - prolif currently is an option but it is both 'fair' and has compelling competitors)

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i do not think that there is any 'fair' way of applying number tweaks.

No fair way so lets remove the only way the fire builds are actually good /s

Your suggestion is the exact reason why I am afraid of all the QQ please nerf threads. You are removing options available for builds, not making anything more diverse.

Why stop at burn from corpses, how about shock?

shock from corpses is irrelevant in practice (but sounds very nice in theory). the only possible PRACTICAL use is to prolif shock from thrash to map boss and get 50% more damage for few seconds but how often it is even possible to set up? the same effect (vaal lightning trap) is available for more than a year now yet noone gives a damn

there is no freeze from corpses - no reason for other elements to spread that way


burn prolif builds ARE TOO CHEAP from the skill (player) and skill (ingame) perspective. it takes no effort, gear nor brain-muscle to setup a burn-prolif build. not because of FB but because of prolif that effectively cuts EVERY corner required to setup a working non-prolif burn build

- chance to ignite (no need to raise it above 50% - heck even 40% - in practice as one 'tick' in a pack is all that is needed)
- AOE (mobs will walk into the fire anyway and the implicit gem AOE is generous)
- fire pen on all targets (only the initial one matters so who cares, even cursing is not really needed for a normal clear)
- burn damage (not needed if mobs are hit for fatal damage in most cases - prolif spreads from weakest/least-resistant to fire mobs anyway)


prolif is strong in utility role too (spell totem - ice spear - ele prolif - gmp + herald of thunder + crit == entire screen shocked and frozen) but it is not as bad as with burn


you talk about diveristy - this is lame argument when there is currently NO diversity in burn-based builds. you just want to keep the status quo.

I believe I stated somewhere early in the thread that burn should probably be addressed before Ele Prolif. Only then can you have a fair comparison between the different status effects and compare their power in terms of this gem.

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Moosifer wrote:

Rex are you two people? A bunch of dismissive, quick responses in which you seem to not care to put any effort into the discussion, then posts like this. It's odd to say the least

Not as odd as you might think. I got bored of that thread (which is when I began to get dismissive), and I wasn't satisfied with the reasoning provided against my position, so it was just going in the same circles repeatedly, which disinterested me further. Eventually, I just felt that I had been dragged below my normal intellectual and reasoning standards--even brought low enough to trade personal attacks with people--so the only rational course of action was to stop.

Truth be told, I actually respect your opinions, even when I vehemently disagree with them. There are even points I agree with Goetzjam on, but the way he posts is very adversarial, and I got dragged into that. I just had to take a couple days of doing something else to reset my attitude and return to a more objective viewpoint.

To that end, I apologize for the flame wars I have participated in and to those I engaged in such a way. We are all passionate about the games we play, and we each have different values we bring to the table in our views of what the game should be. If the feedback forum is to hold any value or utility to the developers, we need that feedback to be well reasoned and absent useless types of emotion (anger, bigotry, contempt, etc). The kinds of emotion that are useful in discussion are how various elements of the game are fun, frustrating, rewarding, punishing, etc; they need to be directed at the game experience and not each other.

I hope that explains what must have appeared as "uncharacteristic" in my posts. =)

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

I believe I stated somewhere early in the thread that burn should probably be addressed before Ele Prolif. Only then can you have a fair comparison between the different status effects and compare their power in terms of this gem.

This is what has already happened to shock and freeze. The existence of an OP proliferation has led to the statuses getting nerfed, making play overall more bland and boring.

I don't want to see ignite nerfed. I want to see it buffed, and Shock buffed (undoing the previous nerf), and Freeze buffed. But to do that, Prolif must be reined in.

Burn is currently 20% of initial fire hit per second for 4 seconds. I'd like to see 25% for non-prolif burn and 15% for prolif burn.