Are new players happy with market availability?

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goetzjam wrote:

The game FOR SURE doesn't need to be made easier for new players by increasing the drop rates, so many more options GGG can do to help new players rather then increasing orb drop rates.

Well, yes. Like making trading a bit more accessible and seamless. Which was kinda my point. Thanks for making it for me ;)

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davidnn5 wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

The game FOR SURE doesn't need to be made easier for new players by increasing the drop rates, so many more options GGG can do to help new players rather then increasing orb drop rates.

Well, yes. Like making trading a bit more accessible and seamless. Which was kinda my point. Thanks for making it for me ;)

More accessible? It is very accessible, nothing about PoE presents the best way of doing anything, including trading, crafting, linking, ect so why single out market availablility anyone with the knowledge of using poe.trade (which players easily can find out about if they ask) has market availability.

They COULD hint at trading with players to acquire items, but in this day and age anyone can google "how to trade in poe"

This whole thread is basically pointless as the amount of new players that will read and respond to this thread will be so little (or none) to get any valid feedback from them.

hi. i've been playing for 3-4 months or so. i don't know if that counts as new but playing only 2-3 hours a day for some weeks does make me a nooblet of some sorts :d.

when i started playing i didn't even care about an items market or market availability in general. i was alching low lvl stuff that i thought i needed at that time. was occasionally getting some good rolls and just kept on playing. later, in my 60's, with alch orb stash depleted while at the same time alchs became harder/rarer to get as drops, it became painfully evident that i can't sustain myself with what the game will give me so i quit that char.
i then made a series of (3)low lvl chars because it seemed to me that drops were better at lower lvls and just started hoarding currency because i felt i had to (logic was: if i use currency on low lvl chars i won't have enough/none left for when the chars will be of higher lvl). i was still not using/carrying about a market but that killed some of the fun i had in the beginning. i mean, why have the orb drop in the first place if common sense tells me not to use it because ...future...
to this day i'm hoarding currency because "what if i really needed later?!" and i don't believe that's a good mentality to encourage via the gameplay.
at that point i was thinking of some sort of currency time-decay that could be implemented while upping drop rates at the same time just so that low lvl chars could use them more freely because if you think about it, the drop rate of an item doesn't really matter, time will always beat it.
now it's like - take this orb drop now but maybe enjoy it later which, personally, i think its bad for morale/fun/gaming experience.

that was at the end of rampage league (i caught couple weeks of that). then i quit until torment, hoarded currency again and yesterday i spent all my 160 fuses trying to get a 5link and failing and now i'm thinking of quitting again until 1.4.

overall, through out my gaming, i bought the +8% fire resist shield because my RF build wouldn't work without it (via poe.trade), the +1 specters and +1 zombies boots (via poe.trade), some gems that i wasn't able to find and needed for some builds and sold some Agate for chaos orbs.

i vendored 5link chests, weapons and many other good (high life, high res, high dmg mods etc) items because not only i wouldn't know how to price them, but even if i were to under price them just to get rid of them, trying to sell them on /trade would be to much of a hassle and the spam of others in there, will win. in /global (getting reported or muted and all that jazz) it's a no go.

tldr: i wouldn't care about a market if the game would provide me with some of the drops needed to play the game but it doesn't so it's needed.
you need a lot of time and a lot of know-how to make currency in today's market. even if i'd get the know-how i would't have the time so i'd rather quit.
for people with time to spare, kudos to them.

@kreca74, yep, that's how you are supposed to play, if you don't want to shop for everything. You need to save every single orb, until you absolutely need them. Dont use alc, chaos or fuse, until Merciless. In Merc use them only for master crafting and almost never for "yoloing" items. You'll need a ton of Alc later, when you'll be rolling maps.

Either buy a 5L or link a white chest using armor scraps. Never try to 5L rare or unique items, until you can afford to blow 200 fuse on it (or use Vorici craft). When you 5L that first chest in league, you then throw a few chaos on it, but again, use them sparingly, be sattisfied with mediocre stats.

Regals, which would make sense during leveling, are almost non-existent until very late game (75+ ilvl recipe). The whole orb situation is kida absurd, forcing people in a hoarding gameplay. It was even worse before master crafting.

Orb drop rates and their messed up rarities are designed for trading gameplay, so dont expect any changes. In PoE it's either picking up leftovers from a dumpster, or ez-mode insta-grat trading. No middle ground :)

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morbo wrote:

@kreca74, yep, that's how you are supposed to play, if you don't want to shop for everything. You need to save every single orb, until you absolutely need them. Dont use alc, chaos or fuse, until Merciless. In Merc use them only for master crafting and almost never for "yoloing" items. You'll need a ton of Alc later, when you'll be rolling maps.

Either buy a 5L or link a white chest using armor scraps. Never try to 5L rare or unique items, until you can afford to blow 200 fuse on it (or use Vorici craft). When you 5L that first chest in league, you then throw a few chaos on it, but again, use them sparingly, be sattisfied with mediocre stats.

Regals, which would make sense during leveling, are almost non-existent until very late game (75+ ilvl recipe). The whole orb situation is kida absurd, forcing people in a hoarding gameplay. It was even worse before master crafting.

Orb drop rates and their messed up rarities are designed for trading gameplay, so dont expect any changes. In PoE it's either picking up leftovers from a dumpster, or ez-mode insta-grat trading. No middle ground :)

Not true master crafting adds that middle ground. Get a 2 resist ring with no life, just pay alchs and add some life to it. Get a ring but need a specific resistance for that slot or some all res, add some with 3 alchs.

Sounds like your problem is more on PoE's itemzation then it is on market availability, which is a big difference. If the items are available for trade (on poe.trade), then it isn't a market availability issue. If you never get good\useful items to drop that is an itemzation issue, but honestly master crafting has pretty much removed this from the game.

People didn't use to hoard orbs, but as it became easier and easier to trade vs using them people started to horde them as why take the gamble when you can get the stats you need for a lot less overall?

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goetzjam wrote:

People didn't use to hoard orbs, but as it became easier and easier to trade vs using them people started to horde them as why take the gamble when you can get the stats you need for a lot less overall?

wat? Orbs have always been for trading or mapping. Masters did add a use for them outside of this, but orbs have been for hoarding since OB started. Before that, it didn't matter, because we all knew a wipe was coming.

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kreca74 wrote:

hi. i've been playing for 3-4 months or so. i don't know if that counts as new but playing only 2-3 hours a day for some weeks does make me a nooblet of some sorts :d.

when i started playing i didn't even care about an items market or market availability in general. i was alching low lvl stuff that i thought i needed at that time. was occasionally getting some good rolls and just kept on playing. later, in my 60's, with alch orb stash depleted while at the same time alchs became harder/rarer to get as drops, it became painfully evident that i can't sustain myself with what the game will give me so i quit that char.
i then made a series of (3)low lvl chars because it seemed to me that drops were better at lower lvls and just started hoarding currency because i felt i had to (logic was: if i use currency on low lvl chars i won't have enough/none left for when the chars will be of higher lvl). i was still not using/carrying about a market but that killed some of the fun i had in the beginning. i mean, why have the orb drop in the first place if common sense tells me not to use it because ...future...
to this day i'm hoarding currency because "what if i really needed later?!" and i don't believe that's a good mentality to encourage via the gameplay.<snip>

This seems to be a running theme. Hense why higher end orb drop rates need to be SIGNIFICANTLY increased. So they're actually useable.

Yes this game is balanced around trading, but frankly traders are always going to have more no matter what. You could at least give the have-nots SOMETHING!

Trying to get by on your own in today's PoE is an exercise in futility.

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goetzjam wrote:

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morbo wrote:

@kreca74, yep, that's how you are supposed to play, if you don't want to shop for everything. You need to save every single orb, until you absolutely need them. Dont use alc, chaos or fuse, until Merciless. In Merc use them only for master crafting and almost never for "yoloing" items. You'll need a ton of Alc later, when you'll be rolling maps.

Either buy a 5L or link a white chest using armor scraps. Never try to 5L rare or unique items, until you can afford to blow 200 fuse on it (or use Vorici craft). When you 5L that first chest in league, you then throw a few chaos on it, but again, use them sparingly, be sattisfied with mediocre stats.

Regals, which would make sense during leveling, are almost non-existent until very late game (75+ ilvl recipe). The whole orb situation is kida absurd, forcing people in a hoarding gameplay. It was even worse before master crafting.

Orb drop rates and their messed up rarities are designed for trading gameplay, so dont expect any changes. In PoE it's either picking up leftovers from a dumpster, or ez-mode insta-grat trading. No middle ground :)

Not true master crafting adds that middle ground. Get a 2 resist ring with no life, just pay alchs and add some life to it. Get a ring but need a specific resistance for that slot or some all res, add some with 3 alchs.

Sounds like your problem is more on PoE's itemzation then it is on market availability, which is a big difference. If the items are available for trade (on poe.trade), then it isn't a market availability issue. If you never get good\useful items to drop that is an itemzation issue, but honestly master crafting has pretty much removed this from the game.

People didn't use to hoard orbs, but as it became easier and easier to trade vs using them people started to horde them as why take the gamble when you can get the stats you need for a lot less overall?

You aren't wrong - masters help, but the way it was implemented (and then subsequently nerfed into the ground with a 5000% price hike) has rendered them of extremely limited use. They can fix an "almost great" rare, but they can't make a good rare great, or an any other one good.
And no, Masters are designed for traders now. You can't say with a straight face that anything that uses an exalted orb, an orb with an approximated 1 per 200 hour droprate, as a currency is balanced for your average pubby.


As an aside...

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People didn't use to hoard orbs, but as it became easier and easier to trade vs using them people started to horde them as why take the gamble when you can get the stats you need for a lot less overall?

You say this like it's a good thing? This is a major problem. (in principal it's fine and expected. In practice, it's massively flawed because the sheer price difference is too extreme. The cost of solo crafting is inordinately high compared to the price of purchase. This is the whole point of contention.)

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You aren't wrong - masters help, but the way it was implemented (and then subsequently nerfed into the ground with a 5000% price hike) has rendered them of extremely limited use. They can fix an "almost great" rare, but they can't make a good rare great, or an any other one good.
And no, Masters are designed for traders now. You can't say with a straight face that anything that uses an exalted orb, an orb with an approximated 1 per 200 hour droprate, as a currency is balanced for your average pubby.

You can't add hybrid to any weapons anymore, that simply means that when you are trying to make a rare better it must have that roll. Masters were never designed to replace ultra endgame crafting, but rather improve pieces with specific stats at a much lower cost.

The whole game is not balanced around average gameplay, that simply isn't PoE. If the game was balanced around "casual" players using those orbs then the top end players\crafters would suffer. Itemzation in PoE in general would suffer as well.

Masters are no more designed for traders then they are solo players. Yes you can buy items, master craft and flip them, but that is the "solo" players fault for not doing some market research. Players are more then capable of doing what any other player can do in PoE.

Exalted orbs are very rarely used for the intended use of making a rare better, but rather as a high value currency orb. Whether this was GGG's original intention is unclear, but it seems to be working pretty well.

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As an aside...

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People didn't use to hoard orbs, but as it became easier and easier to trade vs using them people started to horde them as why take the gamble when you can get the stats you need for a lot less overall?

You say this like it's a good thing? This is a major problem. (in principal it's fine and expected. In practice, it's massively flawed because the sheer price difference is too extreme. The cost of solo crafting is inordinately high compared to the price of purchase. This is the whole point of contention.)

Except for this has absolutely nothing to do with the market availability of items, this is a completely separate issue that I suggest you make a separate post about. There are numerous reasons why "crafting" your own item should cost much more then buying it.

"

This seems to be a running theme. Hense why higher end orb drop rates need to be SIGNIFICANTLY increased. So they're actually useable.

Yes this game is balanced around trading, but frankly traders are always going to have more no matter what. You could at least give the have-nots SOMETHING!

Trying to get by on your own in today's PoE is an exercise in futility.

They are useable, but typically aren't worth the risk to do so as you can almost always buy an item for less then the crafting cost.

Or those have-nots just have to understand this is an online ARPG game and GGG can't balance a game around solo play.

You can completely play this game solo, i'd recommend against it and against not trading for some things, but you by no means need to buy ever single item slot in order to play the game.

tnx for replies and feedback.
yes, it could also be a matter of itemization and masters do help but i find the later to be rather limited.
with me talking mostly about things up to and around lvl ~+60ish (Docks merc farming ready):
- you are limited by the number of masters that you can use/have in your hideout at a time (not to mention are you are almost forced to have a Vorici/Elreon just for their orb deals)
- you level faster then your masters do so their master-crafts are of little/limited use while leveling
- the cost of a master-craft is rather expensive. a lvl30ish craft would cost around 3-4 alchs. by the time i hit 60 with my first char in torment, i had less then 2 stacks of alchs (~15 - 17) so master-crafting 3-4 items kinda hurts.
(note: when i got my first master to lvl 8 and saw that a multicraft is 2EX i loled and said ... yea, that's never going to happen)

at one point, i was thinking even at some kind of reimbursement for crafts, via orbs or master options in which one would get some of the craft cost back; penalties depending on the type of currency used or something.
Ex: use 187 fused for a 5link, use the item, but when you're done with it, go to a master(or use an orb) and get, lets say, 10%-25% of the cost back.
i realized that it would totally mess some market prices and had no idea if it could be implemented, but you know, brainstorming doesn't hurt. :)

poe is a good game but i feel there is just to much stuff made pointless in it.