Immune to Life Leech

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Mr_Mustasch wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

Your build has Vaal Pact, is energy shield based, and enemy hits hard. GG.

Your build also has Vaal Discipline, which you activate before killing off these mobs. GG!

Vaal Discipline doesn't have enough souls; you're fucked.

Vaal gems cannot be depended upon. Especially if it is a random encounter.

But as to that point, VD would make you basically immune to anything due to the fact you regenerate what, 33% of your ES per second?

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Crackmonster wrote:

The way you argue it's like anything that poses a challenge to a build it should just go away.

I mean, whatever points could be made, yours come forth like some oblivious agenda.

I know you have an inability to read and actually comprehend what you read - but get his, if you aren't able to kill a single rare monster without leech - than your build is bad, meaning it has general problems due to not being well constructed or being greatly incomplete.

First off, who are you talking to? There is a quote button for a reason. Use it.

Second, it's funny how you attack "how I argue" instead of the contents of my argument. Goes to show that you have no reasonable argument to put forth against it, and since you want to win the argument-or at least continue to argue-you attack the basis of my argument. You then go on to claim that I have an inability to read or comprehend what is posted; quite the contrary, it seems to be you who has this problem, be it due to lack of capacity or lack of care.

Either get on topic and stop with the ad hominem attacks, or don't post. I'm not one to use the "report" function, as I like pointing out what people do and making them look how they act.

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Crackmonster wrote:

By the time you are done aoeing the monster will be 35% hp or less, while you leeched of everything around it. Indeed if you cannot burn that down, your build is bad, it basically means the average rare monster has more defense and damage than you. If one rares whoops your build, then yup, your build is not very strong.

How do you think builds focused around 3-4 curses feel in curse immune maps? Well actually i have been after that before, as i think its too much of a penalty, which is also why here i suggested it being something only rare monsters can roll.

The reason i would like to see immune to leech, is because everything has become too much about leech. It was very apparent about a year ago how everything shifted to leech and they even started shutting down older defenses down as well like curses back then.

That is because leech is the single best method to restore life, energy shield, and mana. It is possible to restore life or ES while also restoring mana, whereas regeneration is much harder to get. Recovery from flasks consumes too many charges for flasks to be a viable option, as CoC is the only build capable of using flasks without worrying about running out of charges. Besides that, there is nothing else.

So unless regeneration and recovery become much better options, or a new option is made, leech should not be limited.

But running into a map where monsters are curse immune with a curse build? That's sheer stupidity. Don't complain about something you brought upon yourself. Reroll the map, sell it, or get a party to carry you through it.

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Natharias wrote:

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Mr_Mustasch wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

Your build has Vaal Pact, is energy shield based, and enemy hits hard. GG.

Your build also has Vaal Discipline, which you activate before killing off these mobs. GG!

Vaal Discipline doesn't have enough souls; you're fucked.

Vaal gems cannot be depended upon. Especially if it is a random encounter.

But as to that point, VD would make you basically immune to anything due to the fact you regenerate what, 33% of your ES per second?

Apart from Vaal Discipline you can kite the mob, or simply walk past it.(and return when you have refilled vaal discipline :D). And if you are in a group you can let another party member take care of it.

To compare with something similar. Incinerate builds do not seem to be unplayable because corrupting blood exist, but they have to be careful around those mobs. I think the same would be true for a Vaal pact leech build against a life leech immune mob.

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Mr_Mustasch wrote:

Apart from Vaal Discipline you can kite the mob, or simply walk past it.(and return when you have refilled vaal discipline :D). And if you are in a group you can let another party member take care of it.

To compare with something similar. Incinerate builds do not seem to be unplayable because corrupting blood exist, but they have to be careful around those mobs. I think the same would be true for a Vaal pact leech build against a life leech immune mob.

On the contrary, my two experiences with incinerate builds shows that CB has no effect on the build. Now I'm using Cybil's Paw, and I'm not leeching life, and have a cast time of about 0.10 or so. The only time CB is a problem is when I have nothing to damage.

LMP versions of the builds may have trouble with it, but then again they also might not be using Cybil's.

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Natharias wrote:

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Mr_Mustasch wrote:

Apart from Vaal Discipline you can kite the mob, or simply walk past it.(and return when you have refilled vaal discipline :D). And if you are in a group you can let another party member take care of it.

To compare with something similar. Incinerate builds do not seem to be unplayable because corrupting blood exist, but they have to be careful around those mobs. I think the same would be true for a Vaal pact leech build against a life leech immune mob.

On the contrary, my two experiences with incinerate builds shows that CB has no effect on the build. Now I'm using Cybil's Paw, and I'm not leeching life, and have a cast time of about 0.10 or so. The only time CB is a problem is when I have nothing to damage.

LMP versions of the builds may have trouble with it, but then again they also might not be using Cybil's.

So use Cybil's Paw against immune-to-leech monster, "problem" solved.

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silumit wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

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Mr_Mustasch wrote:

Apart from Vaal Discipline you can kite the mob, or simply walk past it.(and return when you have refilled vaal discipline :D). And if you are in a group you can let another party member take care of it.

To compare with something similar. Incinerate builds do not seem to be unplayable because corrupting blood exist, but they have to be careful around those mobs. I think the same would be true for a Vaal pact leech build against a life leech immune mob.

On the contrary, my two experiences with incinerate builds shows that CB has no effect on the build. Now I'm using Cybil's Paw, and I'm not leeching life, and have a cast time of about 0.10 or so. The only time CB is a problem is when I have nothing to damage.

LMP versions of the builds may have trouble with it, but then again they also might not be using Cybil's.

So use Cybil's Paw against immune-to-leech monster, "problem" solved.

Life =/= energy shield.

Problem not solved.

With suggestions like these, I think we need to compare them to unwavering and hexproof mobs.

If I was a build that heavily relied on curses to stack up a powerful burn, I would be vehemently opposed to the idea of curse immune mobs,
"That would make my build useless! I would deal no damage to these mobs!"
Same thing goes triple for stun immunity.
Personally, I'm against curse, stun, and status ailment immunity, and that path of thinking worries me.
Isn't that why we have the % health equations? But that's off-topic.
If the opposing argument equally applies to something in the game already......?

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theshadedone wrote:

With suggestions like these, I think we need to compare them to unwavering and hexproof mobs.

If I was a build that heavily relied on curses to stack up a powerful burn, I would be vehemently opposed to the idea of curse immune mobs,
"That would make my build useless! I would deal no damage to these mobs!"
Same thing goes triple for stun immunity.
Personally, I'm against curse, stun, and status ailment immunity, and that path of thinking worries me.
Isn't that why we have the % health equations? But that's off-topic.
If the opposing argument equally applies to something in the game already......?

You're comparing things like curses and stun to leech.

Curses and stun are specific things that not all builds incorporate or take advantage of. However, leech is something that all builds require to some extent.

Look at "specific" immunities, like that of curses, types of damage, stun, and others. This forces the player(s) to incorporate other things into their build to prevent them from being a "one skill does all" build. Curse immunity doesn't really do this, as the skill's effectiveness is not much different from a build that spent the few points in damage instead of curses.

Now look at leech. If a build is using Vaal Pact due to reflect and burst damage, they cannot regenerate life or energy shield. This leaves only flasks and leech to recover hit points. Now consider that flasks only recover life, and only gain charges when you kill enemies or score critical strikes, making them useless for energy shield builds. An energy shield build now has absolutely no way to beat the rare unless they are able to kill it before it kills them. Life builds are at just as much risk, because without leech the rare will kill them if it reflects damage at all.

Now builds that would normally have no problem doing a map or corrupt area with reflect will think twice before entering one, as a single rare can easily destroy them.

If you want to see if a mod would work well, just use it on a boss. If you can still kill a boss with an immunity, the mod should be implemented. Curse immunity, stun immunity, and other immunities work just fine. But not being able to leech? Only life-based crit builds will ever survive and have any hope of defeating them.

Please no more mods like blood magic or no regen. This is not about challenge. This is about certain builds just can't do that. Same for leech immunity. If you put it only on rare mob, you don't really care. If you make it map mod, you just gonna avoid that mod with every leeching build.

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Natharias wrote:

However, leech is something that all builds require to some extent.

And this is totally wrong (not your statement but the fact that was stated). I don't even want to argue on that, but it is.

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silumit wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

However, leech is something that all builds require to some extent.

And this is totally wrong (not your statement but the fact that was stated). I don't even want to argue on that, but it is.

Yes, totally agree. Like I keep on saying: Leech is far to mandatory in this game. To many advantages. Its a good counter against reflect, keeps you alive etc. A mapmod/mod for rares like this would help a bit.