Feedback and Suggestions (Path of Exile 1) - How is GGG going to stop D2JSP and similar scum? - Forum

" DragoonWraith wrote: Simple: it is explicitly authorized. Out of game trading is not. So does this mean The Company has waived certain property rights or what? " It still is not yours to sell. It doesn't matter that they didn't lose it; what matters is that you are exercising a right that is theirs and not yours to exercise. But it does matter: the notions of sell and theft rely on what it means to be property and all that. That's largely where intellectual property donnybrooks spring from (especially nowadays with old assumptions about property being falsified). " I said it was theft, by which I meant that it is the taking of another's property rights without their consent. I consider this a reasonable definition of theft. Ok so it's entirely property rights and somehow The Company has lost or is unable to exercise their property rights regarding property because someone has done something without transferring rights from The Company to a third party? " Again, what you are authorized to do makes all the difference. Well that doesn't really answer the question. Does The Company (TC) own all names, including copyright or trademark infringing ones, prior to character creation? Do they have to authorize, explicitly, what motivations I use in choosing a name? Is it wrong for me to accept $10 for naming a character or account dwdwdwdwdw, and is it ok to accept only friendship in exchange? " They don't because lawyers are expensive and it's largely untested; hiring lawyers to work out untested things is even more expensive. See also issues with quantifying damages. But if they have such a strong case, why does it matter that it's untested, and why such difficulty with damages? Uncertainty like that seems to suggest the case isn't as strong. " I've got more important stuff to do than look it up again for an internet argument. :(((((((((((((((((((((((( " It's only distracting from the more important issue, that is, that D2JSP ruins games it gets involved in, regardless of its legality. nah we're focused mostly on legality here right now :\| " Didn't say I agreed with it; it was an aside. ok. I still think it might have some ramifications re: what with them property nonsenses and all " Not what I said. Easier to prove damages with RMT, but that doesn't mean damages don't exist otherwise. Determining and quantifying those damages would require hiring people to work it out and lawyers to defend the calculations, which is harder and not worth the money it'd cost to pay those people. Doesn't mean there aren't damages, just that they're harder to quantify. But damages which are very difficult to quantify can be problematic. They might be: a) so small as to be negligible, in which case what exactly is the problem? b) not really damages -- the argument for them being so tenuous as to produce damages for almost anything c) large, but difficult to calculate -- and thus possibly miscalculated (and potentially abused) d) large, easy to calculate e) some other option I'm kinda using 'real damages' there to mean d, which is the real money case. An item in a world where you don't pay for items, though, doesn't seem to have much, if any value. It seems like it might fall into the other categories. And that's where it enters the world of possibly not harming TC.	Posted by caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaps#1680 on Nov 7, 2011, 10:22:44 PM Quote this Post
I'm off to bed, but you've shown yourself to be a much more interesting debater than I'd initially given you credit for. I'll try to give your post full justice when I get the chance. I did want to comment on the last bit, though, since it caught my eye: in the case of D2, I think we're talking largely about either a) or c). Part of it, certainly is that the damages were not large enough (enough here being worth the time calculating and fighting for them), but I don't think negligible is necessarily the case either. But c) is definitely an issue: without the explicit fee (a la D3), you have to argue in terms of more intangible things that are harder to explicitly calculate (and more vulnerable to defense arguing, driving up legal costs).	Posted by DragoonWraith#7752 on Nov 8, 2011, 12:07:09 AM Quote this Post
" DragoonWraith wrote: I said it was theft, by which I meant that it is the taking of another's property rights without their consent. I consider this a reasonable definition of theft. item shop's never sell item's for money. they sell the TIME it takes to find that item ;) nobodys property is sold. its nothing more than an attendence like a leveling service. just wording but i hope u see its not that easy then u might think. also keep in mind that item shops are just resellers. they 'don't know' where the items are coming from. u might even have to sign a paper that all the items u deliver are legit if u work for them.. good luck in hunting down all the lil duper and bot user from china :D its impossible... my flatmate is an experienced lawyer and he told me its far from easy to win this cases. lawyers are very good in finding arguments u know.. and without actuall proof it will never stand up in court..	Posted by el_puno#5835 on Nov 8, 2011, 8:41:21 AM Quote this Post
If you use jsp, you are a cheater. Period. Why should you be able to sell all your maplestory or D2 crap to get advantages on PoE? Cheating. At least a self found items only league might be fun... (no trading or dropping items)	Posted by Sparka#2347 on Nov 8, 2011, 12:04:07 PM Quote this Post
" Sparka wrote: If you use jsp, you are a cheater. Period. Why should you be able to sell all your maplestory or D2 crap to get advantages on PoE? Cheating. At least a self found items only league might be fun... (no trading or dropping items) Fuck off. No seriously, fuck off. Maybe if you expanded your point beyond such an idiotic blanket statement, I might agree with you, but you can't argue with the fact that it's clearly filling a niche that's got a demand. Why a developer hasn't jumped on the idea is beyond me.	Posted by iamacyborg#0037 on Nov 8, 2011, 2:10:29 PM Quote this Post
" Altnaharra wrote: Um! This is horrible. http://www.danwei.org/breaking_news/gamer_who_murdered_for_virtual.php " Chinese gamer sentenced to life A Shanghai online gamer has been given a suspended death sentence for killing a fellow gamer. Qui Chengwei stabbed Zhu Caoyuan in the chest when he found out he had sold his virtual sword for 7,200 Yuan (£473). The sword, which Mr Qui had lent to Mr Zhu, was won in the popular online game Legend of Mir 3. Attempts to take the dispute to the police failed because there is currently no law in China to protect virtual property. Buying and selling gaming artefacts such as imaginary weapons is a booming business on the web. The internet games section of Ebay saw more than $9m (£5m) in trades in 2003. While China has no laws to deal with the theft of virtual property, South Korea has a section of its police force that investigates in- game crime. According to the Chinese press, more and more gamers are seeking justice through the courts over stolen weapons and credits accumulated in games. In this case, Mr Zhu did offer to hand over the cash but Mr Qui lost patience and stabbed him with "great force" according to media reports. The suspended sentence given to Qui means he could spend the rest of his life behind bars, although it could be reduced to 15 years for good behaviour. The parents of the dead man are planning to appeal against the sentence. "My son was only 26 when he died. He was sleeping when Qiu broke into his home. He was barely able to put his pants on before Qiu stabbed him," said his father, Zhu Huimin. "We want Qui to die, and immediately," he added. The case has led to a debate about where the law stands on virtual property, such as the dragon sabre owned by Qiu. Following the case, associate law professor at Beijing's Renmin University of China said that such weapons should be deemed as private property because players "have to spend time and money for them". But a lawyer for one Shanghai-based internet game company told a Chinese newspaper that the weapons were in fact just data created by games providers and therefore not the property of gamers. Don't worry, my Ribbed staff isn't worth killing over. I'm not sure what amazes me more: The murder, or what that sword sold for! Okay, actually, the murder dun surprise me (I can easily imagine some posters killing for a Beta key), but, 473 pounds? That's over US$500! I could comment on the devaluation of human life in the PRC (Google "Yue-Yue" for a tragic story of a little girl run over twice, and then ignored on the street, there), but this is just obsession taken to an extreme, and could have happened in the US, or anywhere else. Some folks are just not right. ='[.]'= =^[.]^= basic (happy/amused) cheetahmoticon: Whiskers/eye/tear-streak/nose/tear-streak/eye/ whiskers =@[.]@= boggled / =>[.]<= annoyed or angry / ='[.]'= concerned / =0[.]o= confuzzled / =-[.]-= sad or sleepy / =[.]= dazzled / =^[.]~= wink / =~[.]^= naughty wink / =9[.]9= rolleyes #FourYearLie	Posted by Raycheetah#7060 on Nov 8, 2011, 2:33:06 PM Alpha Member Quote this Post
" Raycheetah wrote: Okay, actually, the murder dun surprise me (I can easily imagine some posters killing for a Beta key), but, 473 pounds? That's over US$500! Nothing too special. I have seen certain D2 items go for 2k $. 08 Valks still go for about 1k $. Disregard witches, aquire currency.	Posted by dust7#2748 on Nov 8, 2011, 5:10:52 PM Alpha Member Quote this Post
" el_puno wrote: item shop's never sell item's for money. they sell the TIME it takes to find that item ;) nobodys property is sold. its nothing more than an attendence like a leveling service. just wording but i hope u see its not that easy then u might think. also keep in mind that item shops are just resellers. they 'don't know' where the items are coming from. u might even have to sign a paper that all the items u deliver are legit if u work for them.. good luck in hunting down all the lil duper and bot user from china :D its impossible... my flatmate is an experienced lawyer and he told me its far from easy to win this cases. lawyers are very good in finding arguments u know.. and without actuall proof it will never stand up in court.. I didn't say it was easy; I said repeatedly it would not be, which is why no developer has done so. Making yourself more of a hassle to go after than it's worth doesn't make you right. " iamacyborg wrote: " Sparka wrote: If you use jsp, you are a cheater. Period. Why should you be able to sell all your maplestory or D2 crap to get advantages on PoE? Cheating. At least a self found items only league might be fun... (no trading or dropping items) Fuck off. No seriously, fuck off. Maybe if you expanded your point beyond such an idiotic blanket statement, I might agree with you, You're right, being a member of the D2JSP forum is not, itself, cheating. Trading any in-game item for FG (or any other out-of-game unit of value) is cheating, however. Last I checked, FG were not an accepted currency used by Blizzard or the game. To sell an item for FG is to gain an unintended and illicit advantage over other players. Which they have a word for: cheating " iamacyborg wrote: you can't argue with the fact that it's clearly filling a niche that's got a demand. Why a developer hasn't jumped on the idea is beyond me. "Filling a niche that's got a demand" has nothing to do with it being cheating or not. Just because you and others want it doesn't make it right (oh christ, how bad would the world be if that were true?) And the reason that developers haven't "jumped on the idea" is because they realize that it ruins the game.	Posted by DragoonWraith#7752 on Nov 8, 2011, 8:18:58 PM Quote this Post
" DragoonWraith wrote: " el_puno wrote: item shop's never sell item's for money. they sell the TIME it takes to find that item ;) nobodys property is sold. its nothing more than an attendence like a leveling service. just wording but i hope u see its not that easy then u might think. also keep in mind that item shops are just resellers. they 'don't know' where the items are coming from. u might even have to sign a paper that all the items u deliver are legit if u work for them.. good luck in hunting down all the lil duper and bot user from china :D its impossible... my flatmate is an experienced lawyer and he told me its far from easy to win this cases. lawyers are very good in finding arguments u know.. and without actuall proof it will never stand up in court.. I didn't say it was easy; I said repeatedly it would not be, which is why no developer has done so. Making yourself more of a hassle to go after than it's worth doesn't make you right. i might simply be impossible to hunt down item shops for some arguments i delivered to you. wich by the way is an essence of a chat i had with a dear friend of mine who worked as a lawyer for years. whats your background? theft is a strong word if u can't proof it. but u hold it in your mouth like it's a given fact. its your point of view. nuthing more nuthing less. i gave u some clear arguments(ok my english is not that sharp but i hope u get my points). u didnt answer them.. i know u 100% sure of your standpoint and u'll keep it. but that doesn't count anything in front of court.. proof is the thing that counts.. remember o.j. simpson? i btw support your vision of a legit game/gameplay.	Posted by el_puno#5835 on Nov 8, 2011, 9:03:08 PM Quote this Post
" dust7 wrote: " Raycheetah wrote: Okay, actually, the murder dun surprise me (I can easily imagine some posters killing for a Beta key), but, 473 pounds? That's over US$500! Nothing too special. I have seen certain D2 items go for 2k $. 08 Valks still go for about 1k $. I've never done any online gaming (the missus and I only play D2 TCIP), so I had no idea RM prices got that high. Just curious, what is/are "08 Valks"? =0[.]o= =^[.]^= basic (happy/amused) cheetahmoticon: Whiskers/eye/tear-streak/nose/tear-streak/eye/ whiskers =@[.]@= boggled / =>[.]<= annoyed or angry / ='[.]'= concerned / =0[.]o= confuzzled / =-[.]-= sad or sleepy / =[.]= dazzled / =^[.]~= wink / =~[.]^= naughty wink / =9[.]9= rolleyes #FourYearLie	Posted by Raycheetah#7060 on Nov 8, 2011, 9:10:10 PM Alpha Member Quote this Post