ReverendBizzarre: ele cleave templar [6k life, 45k+ dps]

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magicrectangle wrote:

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VictorDoom wrote:

Concentrated effect would be your best option. Preferably a quality one too so it reduces the mana cost

I know that it would give the most damage, but the area of effect is so nice. I've tried concentrated effect instead of increased AoE in my 5 link, and vastly prefer increased AoE. I still kill most trash monsters in a few swings, and I hit a lot more of them. I'm also much safer as I can easily be out of melee range of nasty things, with my skellies in front, and yet still be hitting the enemy.

Add to that how nice it is in 6 player maps to be able to hit stuff without knowing exactly where it is (oh god, the visual spam, WTB low effects setting), and I just don't think I'm willing to give that up.

I do have a quality concentrated effect leveled on my weapon swap, but every time I swap it in I miss my AoE too much and swap back.

However, maybe in a 6L it will be manageable with inc AoE counteracting the down side a bit. I guess I won't know until I get a 6L and try it, but given how much of a revelation it was for me when I first added inc AoE to my link, I doubt I'll ever be willing to give up that range. (71% inc AoE at the moment).

in 6l with AoE linked to it too its not much of a biggie, you will only decrease it by 30% so you will still have around 40-50% increase with both gems

your argument for not taking inner force is that you wont wanna sac your surviveability, as far as ive read

how about you sac those 3 ele notes + those 3 resist notes in the middle. then u´d have inner force + 1 free skill.

you are surely aware that resist is not a problem if ur gear is descent/good

and with a lvl 19+ anger/wrath, inner force will do WAY more dmg than 3x 10% ele notes. And with grace your armor will go up accordingly. not to speak of 85 all res, if using purity + like 7 more all res

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Zeddor wrote:

your argument for not taking inner force is that you wont wanna sac your surviveability, as far as ive read

how about you sac those 3 ele notes + those 3 resist notes in the middle. then u´d have inner force + 1 free skill.

you are surely aware that resist is not a problem if ur gear is descent/good

and with a lvl 19+ anger/wrath, inner force will do WAY more dmg than 3x 10% ele notes. And with grace your armor will go up accordingly. not to speak of 85 all res, if using purity + like 7 more all res

No you wont do more dps at all, you lose quite a lot of it, the WeD nodes increase auras as well as all of the elemental damage on gear and weapons because they all apply to your weapons.
Inner force only increases auras, its a massive loss in damage compared to 30% WeD which increases everything by 30%.

armor is high enough, no point in getting more than 10k, and sacrificing dps and resistances for 1% to max all res and some extra armor which is useless because of how armor works is not worth it

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VictorDoom wrote:

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Zeddor wrote:

your argument for not taking inner force is that you wont wanna sac your surviveability, as far as ive read

how about you sac those 3 ele notes + those 3 resist notes in the middle. then u´d have inner force + 1 free skill.

you are surely aware that resist is not a problem if ur gear is descent/good

and with a lvl 19+ anger/wrath, inner force will do WAY more dmg than 3x 10% ele notes. And with grace your armor will go up accordingly. not to speak of 85 all res, if using purity + like 7 more all res

No you wont do more dps at all, you lose quite a lot of it, the WeD nodes increase auras as well as all of the elemental damage on gear and weapons because they all apply to your weapons.
Inner force only increases auras, its a massive loss in damage compared to 30% WeD which increases everything by 30%.

armor is high enough, no point in getting more than 10k, and sacrificing dps and resistances for 1% to max all res and some extra armor which is useless because of how armor works is not worth it

I spent a few regrets dubble checking it and the dmg is higher non the less.

besides - since this build already has a lot of WeD, the dmg goes higher. If the build had 0% WeD then i agree. But you said it yourself. WeD does increase the auras and so forth. this is purely the question of balance.

And since this build yeilds a lot of WeD, the dmg increase from auras will get multiplied like crazy.

its like how to balance MF. 300% mf with 110% quantity, is better than 600% mf with 0 quantity. its a balance. And with a build like this which has tons of WeD, the dmg buff is a must from IF. go try it yourself.

10k armor is enough? like wtf is that? with a build like this that wont run with a high arctic armor ect, EVERY armor point is really appreciated.

Besides. if you have rly nice gear lategame and you feel u can sac purity for determination. then you should know its not hard to get 25-30k armor.

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Zeddor wrote:

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VictorDoom wrote:

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Zeddor wrote:

your argument for not taking inner force is that you wont wanna sac your surviveability, as far as ive read

how about you sac those 3 ele notes + those 3 resist notes in the middle. then u´d have inner force + 1 free skill.

you are surely aware that resist is not a problem if ur gear is descent/good

and with a lvl 19+ anger/wrath, inner force will do WAY more dmg than 3x 10% ele notes. And with grace your armor will go up accordingly. not to speak of 85 all res, if using purity + like 7 more all res

No you wont do more dps at all, you lose quite a lot of it, the WeD nodes increase auras as well as all of the elemental damage on gear and weapons because they all apply to your weapons.
Inner force only increases auras, its a massive loss in damage compared to 30% WeD which increases everything by 30%.

armor is high enough, no point in getting more than 10k, and sacrificing dps and resistances for 1% to max all res and some extra armor which is useless because of how armor works is not worth it

I spent a few regrets dubble checking it and the dmg is higher non the less.

besides - since this build already has a lot of WeD, the dmg goes higher. If the build had 0% WeD then i agree. But you said it yourself. WeD does increase the auras and so forth. this is purely the question of balance.

And since this build yeilds a lot of WeD, the dmg increase from auras will get multiplied like crazy.

its like how to balance MF. 300% mf with 110% quantity, is better than 600% mf with 0 quantity. its a balance. And with a build like this which has tons of WeD, the dmg buff is a must from IF. go try it yourself.

10k armor is enough? like wtf is that? with a build like this that wont run with a high arctic armor ect, EVERY armor point is really appreciated.

Besides. if you have rly nice gear lategame and you feel u can sac purity for determination. then you should know its not hard to get 25-30k armor.

You may do more dps because you do not have high dps on your rings/amulet or wake of destruciton boots, most people have these items(except wakes) so taking 30% WeD is better, much better because it increases everything not only auras.

You must learn how armor works it seems, and how damage works too..

Big hits dont get mitigated, no one ever bothered getting more than 6k in CB, in OB getting more than 10k will do the same thing, you mitigate small hits, but the big hits require a ridiculous amount of armor to mitigate, thats why we have endurance charges.

Arctic armor is only useful for 2 things by the way, incinerate mobs and the MS quality.

Also i did post it quite a lot of times, i did try the inner force, thats why im saying its not worth the points, im not going to hold you back form getting it if you want it badly, im only pointing out that it is not worth getting it.

i've had this argument too many times now and its getting tedious, on some builds inner force is not worth taking.

I know every game mechanic and how they work.

which means i´m well aware of the armor mechanics aswell.

by looking at your build your hitting a lot of densive stats, like steel skin, leather and steel ect. When that is the case you have to aim for 30-40k armor instead of 10k as u mentioned.

the bonus from grace ect, will be multiplied serveral times and as explained those high armor valvues DOES help you.

if you havent played with 30k + armor then you don´t know what your talking about.

No you cant mitigate anything from vaal smash ect. only thing that helps here is life. So either you run with Kaoms and a 2 hander, or you dual weild with a 6L instead and u aim for armor.

IF you choose to run with kaoms, you shoudent get those armor notes what so ever. you can reach 6-8k ish without any notes and thats fine really. IF you do want to run with dual weild, you will have to get around 30-40k armor, and in that case yes - the notes are fine

Now I take it you play maps at different levels and know what hurts and what don´t.

blue, leapers, rhoas ect are a fine sample since thats whats actually kill most ppl. desynched or not. Now asuming you do know how the armor mechanic works, then you can mitigate 60-70% of those hits, and around 80-85% with charges when you have around 30-40k armor. and those blue Leapers / Rhoas, DO hit for around 1300-2000, before the migation.

back to the main thing. Inner force helps a LOT reaching that amount of armor. grace getting multiplied by passives, then getting multiplied by armor afterwards and then by determination ( if you choose to run it with appropiate monster spanws in maps )

regarding the dmg. either ur anger/wrath gems are at a silly level or you dont use WeD on cleeve, or your calculater is flawed.

with all do respect though.

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Zeddor wrote:

regarding the dmg. either ur anger/wrath gems are at a silly level or you dont use WeD on cleeve, or your calculater is flawed.

Rather than just going back and forth asserting this one way and then the other, lets actually calculate it, shal we? TL;DR at the bottom if you dislike the maths.

Let Di be (simplified) damage with inner force, let Dw be (simplified) damage with an extra 30% weapon elemental nodes. Let P be your weapon elemental from gear and passives, let E be your flat +elemental damage (weighted double off weapon, single on weapon), and let A and W be anger and wrath damage, weighted double.

Di = (1.3 * (A+W) + E) * (P+1)
Dw = ((A+W) + E) * (P+1.3)

Supposing we take the OP's gear and spec as our prototype, since that's what this thread is all about anyway. He has 111% elemental from talents, not counting the 30% in question.

His "tankier gear" has 33% elemental for total P = 1.44, and:

E = (26+55+6+98+24+39+7+93)/2 + 13+27+8+19+4+42+9+18+3+41+2+27 = 387 weighted +elemental

His "high dps gear" has 25% elemental for P = 1.36 and:

E = (26+55+6+98+24+39+7+93)/2 + 8+18+7+13+1+27+1+120+9+18+3+41+7+11+1+14+13+27+8+19+4+42 = 586 weighted +elemental

For level 20 anger and wrath:
A+W = (9+147+49+81) = 286 weighted +elemental

So, we calculate first for his "tankier gear." I'll spare you the computation and just give the result:

Di/Dw = 1.004

So, he would gain 0.4% damage switching to inner force. Since inner force also provides some good defensive bonuses, he should switch, if he uses the tankier gear most of the time.

Now we calculate for his "high dps gear":

Di/Dw = 0.975

So he would lose 2.55% damage switching to inner force. Whether he should consider that significant compared to the defensive gains from inner force is up in the air, but clearly he would lose damage.

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TL;DR: Using the OP's gear as our guide, inner force is better in every way in his "tankier gear." Higher damage (only slightly, 0.4%), and of course nice defensive aura and flask bonuses. In his "high dps gear" switching to inner force would lose him a not insignificant 2.55% of his damage, in exchange for the defensive benefits of stronger auras and flasks.

edit: I took another look at the OP's gear I realized I should have run the numbers for level 19 auras, not level 20. I'll leave the above alone because ultimately level 20 auras are what you're interested in when planning ahead, but for level 19 auras it is:

"Tankier gear" inner force loses you 0.1% damage.
"High dps gear" inner force loses you 2.99% damage.

The conclusions don't really change any. Damage stays the same in tankier gear basically, so should switch to get the defensive bonuses of inner force, if that's the primarily used gear set.

My gear isn't nearly as good as the OP's, so I gain a significant amount more damage using inner force. It is worth at least pointing out to newer / less geared players that if your gear isn't great, inner force is clearly better. Over half my damage comes from auras, for example.

Ok, i found a method to settle this once and for all.

Log in, regret 30% ele and 2 resistance points, get inner force, cast auras, regret the inner force, get the 30% ele and done, you got both :D

Never recast the auras, dont log out if you dont have to cause it will cost you another 10 regrets to do it again.

reached 23k dps on the high dps gear XD

expensive, but its damn good


also with inner forced grace and determination auras i gain around 3k armor.

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Zeddor wrote:

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No you cant mitigate anything from vaal smash ect. only thing that helps here is life. So either you run with Kaoms and a 2 hander, or you dual weild with a 6L instead and u aim for armor.

IF you choose to run with kaoms, you shoudent get those armor notes what so ever. you can reach 6-8k ish without any notes and thats fine really. IF you do want to run with dual weild, you will have to get around 30-40k armor, and in that case yes - the notes are fine
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You can get a virtual 6L with EB + Rime Gaze (RRRG). So no reason not to run Kaom's even without a 2H. Kaom's synergizes perfect with Vitality and Purity as well.
It will only take a few thousand chromes to roll RRRG on Rime, no big deal :P

On a melee char you should definitely try and aim for way more than 10k armor, it makes a big difference in maps where the physical damage gets pretty obscene at times. Just because it scales absolutely terrible against monstrous hits like vaal's smash doesn't mean it's useless. So many players run around with 5k armor and then they try to hit the next hp node so they can gain another useless 80 hp instead of raising their armor.