Low life offers to great benefits and is unique gated.

"
Source? Also the devs have stated that uniques should be build-enabling.


how exactly would shavronnes not be build enabling when the benefits of low-life are reduced as well as the requirement?

It would remove it from BiS status for this playstyle yes.
Exactly what needs to happen.
"
Completed 1 ChallengeBoem wrote:
"
I don't really see a problem with shavs being a build-enabling unique, or having builds that are just difficult/expensive to make. But it is irritating that in nearly every case, Low-life is a strictly superior version of a similar CI build, rather than just being different.

I think Crown of Eyes coming out had a LOT to do with this though.


Sorry to say but you also missed the point, i see it is hard to disconnect low-life as a game mechanic attribute from shavronnes, this only proves my point further that it is BiS in it's current form and disables build diversity as a game mechanic.


If you were in any way honest about this, you would also say that facebreakers shouldn't be BiS for unarmed builds, or that Cloak of Defiance shouldn't be BiS for non-scion MoM. It's fairly obvious that it isn't a matter of you not wanting uniques to be build-enablers, but that you want to play a build style that you may not be able to afford.

I'm just saying that low-life overshadows CI far too much, which is really what makes Shavs so damn expensive to begin with.
Standard IGN: Pubik / Ambush: PlumpSummerSausage
Long live the new Flesh
"
If you were in any way honest about this, you would also say that facebreakers shouldn't be BiS for unarmed builds, or that Cloak of Defiance shouldn't be BiS for non-scion MoM. It's fairly obvious that it isn't a matter of you not wanting uniques to be build-enablers, but that you want to play a build style that you may not be able to afford.

I'm just saying that low-life overshadows CI far too much, which is really what makes Shavs so damn expensive to begin with.


Did you not read my second post? Where i posted my low life no shavs build prior to act3x release and new additions to the game.

As new content appears, balances are in order. with the introduction of high dps chaos spike damage, a non-shavronnes low life build is impossible. therefore shavronnes attained BiS status after act3x release. (this is from my personal perspective and testing, since i know it is viewed BiS by the community for over a year now, while in reality it was not)

do facebreakers have "unarmed benefits on skills" or unarmed benefits in the passive tree?

Doe's it allow the ussage of skills/passive tree mechanics not used by any other users?
because that is not what "build-enabling" means. It is the exact opposite.

cloack of defiance, hilarious that you bring this item up, since the MoM keystone does get used outside of this unique, and it is a "build-enabler" in the true sense of the word when you are not located near that passive keystone.

Because yet again, you are impossible to view the low-life attribute for what it is, a game design mechanic that has nothing to do with shavronnes.

Unarmed is a unique item property that is balanced because it has no aditional benefits from skills/passive tree synergy.

Cloak of defiance is balanced because it just duplicates a passive keystone on an item, that is readily available to all that want to build around it.

Shavronnes has a unique property that does not exist in the passive tree. On top of that it has great synergy both with skill gems (low life buffs on gems + aditional aura's) as well as passive nodes.

This is not "build enabling" it is cherry on top of cake on top of cherry.

Build enabling would be a passive keystone between the marauder and duelist giving
"chaos damage does not bypass ES" making shavronnes an option for top passive tree users to get this benefit without the need to travel there.

But please, continue to believe i have a personal goal from this thread rather then a balanced and enjoyable game for all.

Good day to you sir.

Edit :

And before you come with "there is chaos inoculation in the passive tree"

"immune to chaos damage, life is 1" =/= "chaos damage does not bypass energy shield"

And your issue with CI is a personal one, while mine is not, i am concerned about the overall balance with the new introduction of mechanic altering elements (aka spike chaos damage).
While your issue is with the fact one form of theory-craft has more dps then another EHP oriented one.

And since the vast majority of players prefer dps over EHP, you see more dps builds compared to there EHP variant.
That's normal and has nothing to do with game mechanics balance or synergy.
Last edited by Boem on April 26, 2014 3:27 PM
It's funny btw how the thread tittle reads

"Low life offers to great benefits and is unique gated."

And most of the discussion or issue's brought up are about the unique that gates the mechanic instead of having a discussion about removing the mechanic to a non-gated status.

Opening build diversity and enabling low-life builds with rare only equipment.

Thx for that guys.

I guess this thread is destined to die, since only one out of 5 responses seems to grasp the issue at hand.
"
Completed 1 ChallengeBoem wrote:
And your issue with CI is a personal one, while mine is not, i am concerned about the overall balance with the new introduction of mechanic altering elements (aka spike chaos damage).
While your issue is with the fact one form of theory-craft has more dps then another EHP oriented one.

And since the vast majority of players prefer dps over EHP, you see more dps builds compared to there EHP variant.
That's normal and has nothing to do with game mechanics balance or synergy.


Ehh, not really. CI's potential 500 more base ES from a chest and infused shield just objectively don't stack up to the benefits of low-life (Pain attunement/Blood Rage leech/extra auras). And I mean chaos damage just doesn't really pose enough of a threat to be a factor when you compare the two. It's certainly nice to have the immunity, but not nice enough to outweigh everything that low-life gets, not even close.

I could maybe see some caster builds being better off with CI though, since they don't rely as much on auras and don't get the extra leech.

I can see you're all worked up though, so I'll leave you be.

Spoiler
PS: CI and shavs achieve the same thing at the end of the day. hehe
Standard IGN: Pubik / Ambush: PlumpSummerSausage
Long live the new Flesh
I think you're not accounting for how shavs is one of the most expensive items in the game and it's just one piece needed for a strong lowlife build. I farmed Dom for weeks on a different character so I can make a lowlife build. I had 100ex on ambush and after spending it all I could still upgrade my jewellery and gems. There needs to be strong/op builds that are expensive. That's the whole point of grinding out the game. Low life might be strong but its gated behind expensive gear so not everyone can take advantage of how strong it is. With your first suggestion everyone would use lowlife and it would become the norm not the exception. With your second one another high dps spec would rise and you would probably just call for nerfs on it to.
"
PS: CI and shavs achieve the same thing at the end of the day. hehe


If that's the case then why are you troubled by one when compared to the other.

Really you defeat any arguments you might posses in regards to mechanic balance with stuff like that.

Ci and shavronnes unique ability are two separate ability's. If they where not, this thread would not exist, since balance would already be present.

"
I think you're not accounting for how shavs is one of the most expensive items in the game and it's just one piece needed for a strong lowlife build.


The worth of an item is based on what people are willing to pay for it. And has nothing to do with mechanics and balance. It's subjective to people's desire and supply and demand.

And my point is it is the only item to allow low-life in an endgame environment.

that's why the thread tittle also includes "is unique gated".

Not to mention you also miss the point of this thread, since it is about "low-life" benefits and not about shavronnes. The two are connected to one another, while in reality there is no need for that.

The fact they are connected is the basis for this thread. Since there is no "rare item" equivalent build possible to achieve what shavronnes does.
While before the release of act3x there was.

I am neglecting your story about farming etc, since it holds no relevance at all to this thread. I guess i can say "congratz" to you for farming dominus for weeks on end and that is that.

"
Low life might be strong but its gated behind expensive gear so not everyone can take advantage of how strong it is. With your first suggestion everyone would use lowlife and it would become the norm not the exception. With your second one another high dps spec would rise and you would probably just call for nerfs on it to.


it's not gated behind expensive gear, it is gated behind a single piece of equipment, like i said perceived value is irrelevant to mechanics balance.

And both my suggestions are suppose to happen at the same time, i guess you did not understand that, while i did write it in the OP.

If low life value would be raised to 55% consequentially the buffs it provides should be lowered to equalize its potential or create balance within the current game.

This in return would make "low-life" builds viable again with rare items only, like it was prior to act3x release.

The benefit of shavronnes would remain in this scenario btw, people would still be able to reserve down to 1 life with a shavronnes and get massive benefits from aura's, while at the same time rare item users could reduce there life to 55% to gain the benefits and lose out on potential extra aura's shavronnes provides.

Like i said, my intent is not to nerf shavronnes/low-life, my intend is to make it balanced again given the recent additions to the game.(spike chaos damage)
While not making it "unique exclusive" but also "rare item viable" if one builds/designs for it.

People seem to confuse balance =/= nerf.

Calling for a higher limit to "low-life" status(aka 55%) would enable rare item users to utilize it if they build around it, this is not a nerf to low-life. In reality it could be considered a buff or "making it viable with rares".
This in return would allow more builds and create a better diversity. Who knows, we might even see "full life" shavronne builds after such a balance change.

Edit : also jahithber, chaos inoculation actually got a silent buff, as in, more chaos damage was added to the game. This also includes over 1500dps chaos damage spikes (map bosses and invasion bosses). It is just because of this change that low life with rare items has become "unviable" and shavronnes has increased in potential or "BiS".

And lol if you think i am worked up about this, you could say i am passionate about retaining an equal balance within the game mechanics, sure.
I don't see a problem with this.
Last edited by Boem on April 26, 2014 5:49 PM
"
Completed 1 ChallengeBoem wrote:

Not to mention you also miss the point of this thread, since it is about "low-life" benefits and not about shavronnes. The two are connected to one another, while in reality there is no need for that.

The fact they are connected is the basis for this thread. Since there is no "rare item" equivalent build possible to achieve what shavronnes does.
While before the release of act3x there was.


There is a need for it because lowlife is extremely strong. It needs to be gated behind something and currently the only way to gate players is currency/items. Lowlife is the "carrot on the stick" build. There needs to be overpowered mechanics and builds that are gated behind something so we can work towards that super op item/build. You're comming off as entitled to run a lowlife build.


"
it's not gated behind expensive gear, it is gated behind a single piece of equipment, like i said perceived value is irrelevant to mechanics balance.


Solaris lorica is the only other item to allow lowlife and it has garbage stats. People use it still because of how strong lowlife is.


"
People seem to confuse balance =/= nerf.


What? You want to raise the hp limited (no effect on current lowlife builds) while simultaneously nerf them to compensate for "being able to use rares." How is that not a nerf to all current lowlife builds?


"
This in return would allow more builds and create a better diversity. Who knows, we might even see "full life" shavronne builds after such a balance change.


So people are just gonna miss out on 500es from their chest because lol full life shavs bro
Last edited by maqe on April 26, 2014 6:37 PM
"
There is a need for it because lowlife is extremely strong. It needs to be gated behind something and currently the only way to gate players is currency/items. Lowlife is the "carrot on the stick" build. There needs to be overpowered mechanics and builds that are gated behind something so we can work towards that super op item/build. You're comming off as entitled to run a lowlife build.


So your argument is, it should be gated because it is extremely strong?
(fail logic is still fail)

I don't imagine you know how balance functions right?

"low life" is not a build btw. It is an intrinsic game mechanic, don't confuse the two. Since when can i fire low-life's at enemy's?

You make it sound like losing 5k dps when people have 60k dps and the game only requires roughly 10k dps to be beaten is a big nerf to low-life builds. "ok"

I am not entitled to run a low life build, i have one. It doesn't use shavronnes, but it function perfectly in maps except for some content that was added together with act3x.
See the difference? I challenged myself to make one, instead of using the cheesy way to achieve it, but yeah i am so entitled :o).

"
Solaris lorica is the only other item to allow lowlife and it has garbage stats. People use it still because of how strong lowlife is.


I imagine you are talking about ambush, standard league players? Just to say, that is not prove that balance is achieved, it's just prove you can bruteforce yourself true endgame content with lorica. (and no thats not a jab to ambush/standard players, since i play those league's also)

I actually enjoyed the introduction of lorica a lot. Very cool design. But again you are focusing on the unique item and not the mechanic of low-life. . .

"
What? You want to raise the hp limited (no effect on current lowlife builds) while simultaneously nerf them to compensate for "being able to use rares." How is that not a nerf to all current lowlife builds?


You make it sound like a nerf is not justified. Hilarious at best considering the dps value's achieved because of this. Like i mentioned before, current content requires around 10k dps.

So tell me, would a build doing over 100k dps lose effectiveness if that was reduced to 90k?

Lmao your logic.

Balance =/= nerf

Time for you to understand what that means, as in, a reduction in dps output because of low-life is justified by unnecessary high numbers achieved that serve no purpose at all in the current game. A one shot remains a one shot. Be it with 100k dps or 90k dps.

I imagine you will be gutted when your build is only one shotting mobs at 8/10 its current effectivenes :/, i mean like hell, we can one shot slower then one shotting right?

"
So people are just gonna miss out on 500es from their chest because lol full life shavs bro


I imagine you don't even realise it, but you actually prove and support my point with a sentence like that, but whatever.

All in all, i just guess you have a shavs and are emotionally attached to it right? I guess that's why most of your points are loaded with emotions and as a consequence hold no real relevance from a balance perspective. Try to be objective about it and maybe you will understand.

Peace
"
Completed 1 ChallengeBoem wrote:

(fail logic is still fail)

I don't imagine you know how balance functions right?

instead of using the cheesy way to achieve it, but yeah i am so entitled :o).

Hilarious at best considering

Lmao your logic.

Time for you to understand what that means

I imagine you will be gutted when your build is only one shotting mobs at 8/10 its current effectivenes :/, i mean like hell, we can one shot slower then one shotting right?

i just guess you have a shavs and are emotionally attached to it right? I guess that's why most of your points are loaded with emotions and as a consequence hold no real relevance from a balance perspective. Try to be objective about it and maybe you will understand.

Peace


Meh, just load your comments with insults because we disagree on balance philosophy. I never once insulted you.

"
"low life" is not a build btw.


A build is just something you build around whether it be a mechanic, skill, or item.

"peace"

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