A detailed look at Looting and Respecs

While this may or may not pertain to you, I just wanted to shed some light on this subject since most discussions on either topic seem to be "Yes because yes" or "No just no". As with all things, options must be weighed out with balance.

Looting

Most players that are against the FFA style of play and want an instanced environment are ignoring the fact that instanced loot puts them at an advantage over other players, not just FFA players but people that like the solo game experience as well. If player A is grinding solo as a DPS, forced to kite/dodge/port away, he is playing a harder game; If player B is grinding solo as a soft hitting tank he will farm much slower than player C who has tanks to tank damage and DPS cannons annihilating mobs at an increasingly easier rate as party member size increases.

Now the most common argument against this scenario is that player A and player B could build into a mix of DPS and tank. Well this also means that they won't farm as fast and won't be able to tank as much damage, which is still a disadvantage. One thing we can't do is force players that like to play alone into group play because it has a higher drop chance with no risk. A longer timer and instanced loot do exactly that, it lowers the RISK of other party members taking loot that you feel that was permanently assigned to you.

Now, there is a way to balance instanced looting, which many might argue with, but everything needs to be balanced in a logical way. If you play in parties there are a few reasons to do so:

1. You like the social application
2. You like the higher drop rate
3. You can't proceed without help
4. You like plowing through the game content at a faster rate

The benefits to party play are so significant over playing solo that even now with a FFA atmosphere it doesn't make sense NOT to party. You still receive 3 of the 4 benefits from partying even if you aren't able to get to the loot before the timer is off, or all 4 if you are able to react appropriately.

Instanced looting removes any penalty from playing in a party and would force players to choose it over FFA or solo play if it were implemented in the way most for the system have described. Let me explain this.

If someone went to the store and they said here have this %300 more free coupon no strings attached. Who wouldn't take that coupon? (assuming the coupon wasn't for AIDS or any other negative reason) The answer is a majority would take that coupon while the only ones to refuse would be the skeptics. Currently party looting in a group of 6 offers +300% Item Quantity, but endures the risk of losing it to other party members, that is the tradeoff. By eliminating the risk the bonus for taking such risk should also be reduced or removed as there are many other benefits to playing in a party already (examples 1, 3 and 4).

Solutions to looting

After all of the logic behind it, there are certain measures that could be implemented without affecting the game balance all around.

1. Keep the timer for lag/fps/reaction issues, but remove names from drops. No one can pick up an item until 1-2 seconds has passed.

2. Add the option to increase the timer with a significant loss to item quantity, balanced around the current 1-2 second timer being 300%. Every 1 second increase removes %25 of the group quantity.
-ex. a: Party of 6 with a 10 second timer receive a total bonus of +50% quantity for the whole group, instead of 300%.

3. Instanced looting with your current magic find *(Bonus Monster HP%/Party Members)% item quantity.
-ex. a: You make a party at 60% Item Quantity, a player joins, you now have a total 45% Item Quantity, another player joins, you now are at 39.6%, another leads to 37.5% and so on.

Current System Balance
Explanation of solution 1:

The games current stance is that the game is free for all, meaning nothing belongs to you unless it is picked up. The original idea should've been to add a timer with no allocation to the timer. What it has lead to is entitlement, which isn't what was intended in the first place. We can go round and round on the subject but the fact is even Chris has stated that if the loot timer expires anyone can pick it up, hence FFA. Also, the bonus to this system is if a bow drops and you are a Ranger, now you have the opportunity to get that loot while on a timer instead of it going to your tanking Marauder.

Increasing Timers
Explanation of solution 2:

Currently the game allows timers for a delay, which I am not happy with, but it was a step necessary for balance. The current timer only allocates for issues such as fps/lag/reaction and ranged players, it was not meant to permanently hold your item for you. With this solution you can choose to increase the timer while taking a loot penalty. This is because you are reducing your risk by a certain percentage with each increase. This is due to the fact that the longer the timer is the more closely it resembles instanced looting, which leads me to...

Instanced Looting
Explanation of solution 3:

The first question might be, why base off the monsters hp%? Well that is simple; it is because the monsters will have +50% HP, assuming 150% the normal amount to kill in a 2 man party. Divided between two players the monsters would die 25% faster. If another player joins now the game is even easier 200% monster HP but divided by 3 players = monsters die 33.33% faster, but you still incur a -33% Item Quantity penalty, as you are achieving things more easily than you would alone, but only receive a loot penalty. There should also be an XP penalty but for this example I am only touching on the loot aspect.

Looting Outro

While you may not agree and my math might be a bit off in some areas, you can all agree that these steps MUST be in place to balance the solo game. There is no reason that a player incurring no risk, blazing through game content faster than a player playing solo should receive a higher drop rate than that solo player, when in fact he should receive a penalty. Many vouching for system reform are preaching "Fairness" because their loot was stolen or they don't like the idea of it being stolen. Well it needs to be fairness across the board. Same goes with a player incurring less risk than a player in a FFA environment, in regards to timers being extended. Fairness cannot be demanded and denied at the same time, we are not politicians.


Respeccing

You go to a car dealership, see the car you want, imagine what it will be like driving it, and then buy it. As time goes on you don't pay attention to maintainance or the look of it and 20,000 miles you try to take it back. Well, you already did the damage to the vehicle so they won't refund you anything. Now imagine that dealership offered you 20% of your money back towards fixing it back up? That would be pretty epic! Well guess what, that is exactly what GGG has done. They are offering you *roughly* 20% of your mistakes to be redone on ever character that you create via quests. This doesn't include the fact that you can use currency all the way down from Wisdom Scrolls to Respec with their offered Orbs of Regret, nor does it include they offer these Orbs of Regret to drop free of charge or a trade channel that you can trade your other currency for at a better rate.

Sorry for that car analogy as it doesn't really apply, this is a game, but very few games offer the opportunity to completely rewrite your character. In Guild Wars 2 you couldn't play a Human Ranger to level 80 then change over to a Elementalist on a whim. I am not talking classes either, going from Human Ranger to Charr Ranger would be the equivalent of Witch to Templar, but Ranger to Elementalist is an entire skill respec. With POE's skill tree it is possible to build any skills from any of the classes. A respec could rewrite your ENTIRE CHARACTER, and no game has allowed that, not even Diablo 3. You can't go with a Barbarian using Magic Missle, but here it is different. You can build a dual wield sword witch if you want, you can go blood magic ice spear on a Marauder. With an entire respec you could completely rewrite your character any way you wish. Other games put limitations on such things making it impossible. GGG says, it shouldn't be impossible, but it should be difficult. The people for a major respec are being greedy when they ask seeing as the way the game works is very different from any other.

Also, they are not limiting you on the time to respec, you could easily make a new character and farm that one they way you now intend, and use the currency/orbs of regret from that character to rewrite your old one in a new way without losing progress on that character.

We all have made mistakes before, but most mistakes come with penalty. I know, I just build a dual totem summoner templar using firestorm and fireball. The way the character plays does not fit my style as it is very passive and you aren't really doing any fighting yourself. Now I spent 4 days making that character, do I feel it was wasted? No, life is about lessons and I learned something about myself making him. I am proud of him as he showed me what not to do. My next character since I was not allowed a full respec to blow points on will be a more thought out character based on what I have learned.

Regarding Options
Options are not always good ones, and when they are good options, they often leave other things behind. If you fired up Modern Warfare 3 and the game immediately asked you "Would you like to unlock all weapons and killstreaks now?" most would say yes. It is an easy out and allows you to play all the content right away. Now you can say, "Well there is the option to earn all of that", right, so if I went into work tonight and my boss said here is your check for next week you can work for it or not it is up to you, what do you think I would choose? The fact is nobody likes being at a disadvantage from other people.

If I said "Path of Exile needs to add an item on questing that is 50% of a godly at act 3 on Merciless", people would say no and some would say that was a good idea. I mean you still need to farm that 100% godly, but the fact is you didn't put in the time/effort to obtain it, you got it for free. Now who is to say that this is wrong? We would all be on a level playing field at that point of the game, every gets the same item, it is fair. You would be correct it would be a fair option but perhaps not the right option. We could argue all day on who is right who is wrong, I could even make a new thread about it and argue until I am blue in the face, because after all it's fair so no matter what I am right and you are wrong.

Just because it is an open option doesn't mean it is fair or right. If I had the option to respec that templar completely, guess what I would have taken it because it was fair since everyone gets it, but would have regretted it because it wasn't right, and I know I am getting an advantage from those who choose not to take it.

The End
If you took the time to read all of this I applaud you, if you still disagree with this then there is no swaying your thinking. Maybe you could enlighten me on why? I am a human and humans are flawed by nature. If my thinking of any of this is wrong feel free to discuss it with me here. I rushed through some of this and might not have been clear, or you may be right and I may end up seeing it that way. I was against instanced loot to no end, but if it were balanced all around I wouldn't see a problem with it.

Thank you for your time,
- Worldbreaker

No. If you play with instanced loot you have a disadvantage compared to FFA loot.

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/45121/page/9#p903086

"

Zakaluka wrote:

I did explain it.

You get +250% quant in a full party. That is, you get 3.5x more white items.
It's very unlikely that others in your party will give a second glance to the same 3- and 4-link white items you'll be interested in.
In a full party with FFA loot, you're way more likely to get the craftable whites you want, with good socket configurations.

You will progress faster item-wise in a FFA party.

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/85965

They already said no instanced looting.

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/87905

"

We have been internally discussing community feedback on topics such as looting options and damage displays.

"

Sickness wrote:

No. If you play with instanced loot you have a disadvantage compared to FFA loot.

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/45121/page/9#p903086

"

Zakaluka wrote:

I did explain it.

You get +250% quant in a full party. That is, you get 3.5x more white items.
It's very unlikely that others in your party will give a second glance to the same 3- and 4-link white items you'll be interested in.
In a full party with FFA loot, you're way more likely to get the craftable whites you want, with good socket configurations.

You will progress faster item-wise in a FFA party.

That is assuming the players are only looking for 3 and 4 link items. Rares/Uniques and Orbs are on a different playing field as almost everyone is looting them.

"

Sickness wrote:

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/87905

"

We have been internally discussing community feedback on topics such as looting options and damage displays.

Brian says they are currently discussing it. That doesn't mean it has reached a decision. I made this thread based off of that post since it is currently in discussion and hasn't reached a set in stone verdict.

"

Worldbreaker wrote:

"

Sickness wrote:

No. If you play with instanced loot you have a disadvantage compared to FFA loot.

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/45121/page/9#p903086

"

Zakaluka wrote:

I did explain it.

You get +250% quant in a full party. That is, you get 3.5x more white items.
It's very unlikely that others in your party will give a second glance to the same 3- and 4-link white items you'll be interested in.
In a full party with FFA loot, you're way more likely to get the craftable whites you want, with good socket configurations.

You will progress faster item-wise in a FFA party.

That is assuming the players are only looking for 3 and 4 link items. Rares/Uniques and Orbs are on a different playing field as almost everyone is looting them.

Sure, but it's not like there will be more Rares/Uniques and Orbs in instanced loot. The risk of getting less loot is already out-weighed by the chance of getting more loot.

"

Sickness wrote:

Sure, but it's not like there will be more Rares/Uniques and Orbs in instanced loot. The risk of getting less loot is already out-weighed by the chance of getting more loot.

There would be more compared to a player playing solo. Also, that group would be moving through the game content much faster than a solo player.

You can't balance Instanced Loot with FFA loot by saying there would be less. There would also be 0 risk which is also associated with playing solo. If both parties incur no risk of losing their items, they should be on an even playing field, which also includes the how quickly they move through content.

EDIT: The risk is that other players have the opportunity to take everything.

"

Worldbreaker wrote:

There would be more compared to a player playing solo. Also, that group would be moving through the game content much faster than a solo player.

It would also be more than not playing at all, and that is equally irrelevant. What are you getting at?

"

Worldbreaker wrote:

You can't balance Instanced Loot with FFA loot by saying there would be less. There would also be 0 risk which is also associated with playing solo. If both parties incur no risk of losing their items, they should be on an even playing field, which also includes the how quickly they move through content.

Instanced loot and FFA loot are balanced enough. You get slightly less [white]stuff in instanced loot, but I don't think anyone really minds.
It's really just a matter of playstyles, but your OP is trying to make it look like players in instanced loot have an advantage over FFA looters that needs to be made up for. It is simply not true.

"

Worldbreaker wrote:

EDIT: The risk is that other players have the opportunity to take everything.

And as I said, that is already out-weighed by the opportunity to take everything from the other players. Zero sum game you know.

"

Sickness wrote:

It would also be more than not playing at all, and that is equally irrelevant. What are you getting at?

The point is a player playing solo with no risk of losing items should be on the same field as someone in a party with no risk of losing anything. Also taking into account someone in a party is killing monsters faster than that solo player, it leaves him at a disadvantage. If both players are of equal skill there is an imbalance.

"

Sickness wrote:

Instanced loot and FFA loot are balanced enough. You get slightly less [white]stuff in instanced loot, but I don't think anyone really minds.
It's really just a matter of playstyles, but your OP is trying to make it look like players in instanced loot have an advantage over FFA looters that needs to be made up for. It is simply not true.

Instanced loot players have an advantage in playstyle vs FFA as they have no risk of losing anything that drops to them. They would also have a large advantage over solo players as far as content farming.

This could be balanced easier if say a party of 2, if monsters had double hp and did double the damage and a party of 3 they had triple the hp and did triple the damage. That would of course be ridiculous as a party of 6 tanks would be one shot.

"

Sickness wrote:

And as I said, that is already out-weighed by the opportunity to take everything from the other players. Zero sum game you know.

There is still risk involved. You have to be on your toes and have to pay attention to drops rather than casually moving along picking up your items at a steady pace. If there is a risk you have to play a different way than if there wasn't.