The Mysterious (and Costly) Case of Immortal Call.

The game hiccuped. If you look, you have 3 power charges before the "death" IC. After the IC procs, you have 3 endurance charges and 2 power charges. Your endurance charges were not used to power IC.

As for what caused the hiccup, I'm going to bet it was a blue moon timing somewhere between the interactions of all your projectiles out and a conversion of charges happening right as Immortal Call needed them.

Honestly, I'd need to see your passives and do some math on IC durations to really figure out the exact order of operations and where it failed.

Edit:
A few questions:
1) Does Immortal Call always update with the newest cast, regardless of duration remaining?

2) Romira's interacts with Ice Spear and Freezing Pulse as well, right?
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Last edited by Terrornoid on March 28, 2014 8:14 AM
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Terrornoid wrote:
The game hiccuped. If you look, you have 3 power charges before the "death" IC. After the IC procs, you have 3 endurance charges and 2 power charges. Your endurance charges were not used to power IC.

As for what caused the hiccup, I'm going to bet it was a blue moon timing somewhere between the interactions of all your projectiles out and a conversion of charges happening right as Immortal Call needed them.

Honestly, I'd need to see your passives and do some math on IC durations to really figure out the exact order of operations and where it failed.


Actually that is a simple desync-case. I noticed that with some other things. Sometimes you gain charges but the game notices too late that you have them and doesn't use them. I noticed it with discharge and I ended up with 2 power-charges after discharging, which is impossible, because I can only crit once with discharge. So I obviously created a power-charge right before discharging (propably from the CoC, Double-Strike) and the game noticed too late that I had this power-charge so it didn't discharge it. The only thing it discharged was the endurance-charge created by EC before. I think that is another form of desync exspecially since it is split-second. When I crit with double strike I basically get a power-charge and use discharge at the same time. In most situations the generated power-charge is immidiatly used by discharge, however sometimes this doesn't work. However it is only noticable if I actually have other charges to use discharge, since it would simply do nothing if I don't have any charges.
"
Terrornoid wrote:
Edit:
A few questions:
1) Does Immortal Call always update with the newest cast, regardless of duration remaining?

2) Romira's interacts with Ice Spear and Freezing Pulse as well, right?


1) This is also a question of mine. When I first theorycrafted the build and offered the idea to Gaia, I was under the impression that Immortal Call would update with every new cast (meaning that on a single target, you would only gain 1 Endurance charge per crit). I don't have the most recent passive tree with me, but with the passives I believe it should have lasted 1.74 sec, assuming 1 Endurance charge was expended. However, when we tested in all sorts of cases (Poorjoy's Asylum, Merciless Dominus, PvP, etc.), the IC timer consistently reached 6 sec. You can see at parts of the video that IC goes from 6 --> 5 --> 6 sec. This behavior seemed to contradict the idea that IC updates every cast, and instead a new cast stacks onto the previous cast (although it does not go higher than the maximum possible duration based on the maximum number of Endurance charges and buff/skill duration passives, which in this case allowed a maximum of 6 sec).

2) Yes, that's why Ice Spear generates so many charges so quickly, as it has 7% base crit chance and, when it reaches second form, 600% increased crit chance. Without Ice Spear, there is a noticeable drop in charges gained via Surgeon's flasks. Freezing Pulse and other spells all interact with Romira's.
IGN: DomMimi
Low Level Dueling (LLD): Mimistify, LLDomMimi, more to come!

[Mirror Service] BEST Belt in HC --> http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/801584
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Completed 2 ChallengesEmphasy wrote:
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Terrornoid wrote:
The game hiccuped. If you look, you have 3 power charges before the "death" IC. After the IC procs, you have 3 endurance charges and 2 power charges. Your endurance charges were not used to power IC.

As for what caused the hiccup, I'm going to bet it was a blue moon timing somewhere between the interactions of all your projectiles out and a conversion of charges happening right as Immortal Call needed them.

Honestly, I'd need to see your passives and do some math on IC durations to really figure out the exact order of operations and where it failed.


Actually that is a simple desync-case. I noticed that with some other things. Sometimes you gain charges but the game notices too late that you have them and doesn't use them. I noticed it with discharge and I ended up with 2 power-charges after discharging, which is impossible, because I can only crit once with discharge. So I obviously created a power-charge right before discharging (propably from the CoC, Double-Strike) and the game noticed too late that I had this power-charge so it didn't discharge it. The only thing it discharged was the endurance-charge created by EC before. I think that is another form of desync exspecially since it is split-second. When I crit with double strike I basically get a power-charge and use discharge at the same time. In most situations the generated power-charge is immidiatly used by discharge, however sometimes this doesn't work. However it is only noticable if I actually have other charges to use discharge, since it would simply do nothing if I don't have any charges.


Well, judging from your experience of using gear that interacts with charges, it seems like the Power charge --> Endurance charge conversion is not 100% reliable. It's really shitty luck that this happened inside Apex of Sacrifice, when we had done hours of testing/mapping/etc. beforehand to verify its usability.
IGN: DomMimi
Low Level Dueling (LLD): Mimistify, LLDomMimi, more to come!

[Mirror Service] BEST Belt in HC --> http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/801584
This is horrible to watch.
- I hope my comments have been received negatively, I hope it offends you, I you tell me it did, that will warm my heart
happened to me too. It's a skill from the guardian, the one with the physical rain. She makes you drop ic with her attack (one in particular, a melee probably). Don't know if it's "work as intended" or not but still.
It's all about experience and know all the skills, debuff and degen and prepare properly for that.
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hissnail wrote:

Gaia isn't running any CWDT. Immortal Call isn't being triggered from CWDT, it's being triggered from CoC. Every IC proc should expend a MINIMUM of 1 Endurance charge, because Voll's Devotion generates Endurance charges on crit (due to the Romira's Banquet interaction).


Can you explain why every IC must always use at least 1 Endurance? Romira's only generates Power on non-crits, so if you have a sufficient string of crits shouldn't a 0-Endurance IC be possible?
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Can you explain why every IC must always use at least 1 Endurance? Romira's only generates Power on non-crits, so if you have a sufficient string of crits shouldn't a 0-Endurance IC be possible?

Because it's impossible to happen. Crit and hit chances, in fact, are NOT random, game mechanics doesnt allow you to have too long streak of luck/unluck. Read PoE wiki for more info.

And this particular case just shows, how horribly broken PoE mechanics is!
I came to an idea of invincible build myself. I didnt tried it myself, though. The main two flaws in game mechanics, that are definetely broken, are bonuses to maximum resists and Immortal Call.
I think, that all bonuses to maximum resists should be just replaced with "less damage taken", so they will be multiplicative, not additive. And Immortal Call should definetely have a cooldown, long enough to make it impossible to spam it. There are also tons of other sick mechanics, that should be fixed (CoC, for example, etc). Even instant leech is a sick mechanics too, and while GGG nerfed it for most players, those who own new gloves from Atziri, gain even more benefits, than ever.

IGN: MyNameIsLost
There is no knowledge
That is not power
Last edited by MortalKombat3 on March 28, 2014 12:23 PM
i've had an ic crap out on me like this and since then i've ran cwdt immortal call + frost wall to give leeway for lag.

EDIT: is your gear for sale in standard?
Creator of the Godmode Build - http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/806664
Stream - twitch.tv/rogueyoshi
IGN - SecretTopTier/Violera
Last edited by TheEnforcer on March 28, 2014 12:22 PM
Assuming that it wasn't a bug, this is what I think happened.

It wasn't just one thing which killed you - it's several things coming together all at once.

Just after you cast the penultimate IC, it looks like you had several non-crits, followed by 2 crits in a row, followed by a non-crit. This would explain the 0 EC, and 1 PC, but max length IC.

On the next IC, you had no EC, so you had a minimum length IC.

This alone didn't kill you - you had 4 EC built up for the next IC. Just before you died, this ticks down to 6 seconds. You didn't get a crit for more than a second which would've probably saved you.

During this, it also looked like you were hitting just one target here and stopped attacking for a split second, which would've further reduced your chances of an IC proc.

Plus the large incoming damage, at that exact time meant you had no chance.

On the earlier maps/runs, you probably didn't face such an extreme set of circumstances to notice, or make it worth noticing.

Each IC overrides the last IC duration. I don't doubt your tests showed 6s > 5s > 6s etc. You're doing a lot of hits in a very short time, both crits and non-crits. Because the frame rate is only updated in finite amounts, you're actually seeing snapshots. Many things can happen in those short times, which could explain "strange" behaviour.

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