2h still sucks

I read here that 2hand were intended to be top damage weapons, dual wield in between, and shield + 1h the most defensive.

Hows that working out?

It's in part because of the stupidly powerful elemental flat damage auras, but also it's because they have so crapped crit chance. Have you every considered that 1h should have low crit chances and 2H the bigger crit chances? (with some exceptions like daggers and other piercing weapons that would approach 2h crit chances).

Maybe it's possible to have a multiplier to damage effectiveness of other sources when using a 2h. or maybe some more 2h crit nodes in the area beneath the marauder in conjunction with higher base crit chance of 2handers?

Or something, one thing is for sure, it doesn't add up with chosen balance.

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Crackmonster wrote:

It's in part because of the stupidly powerful elemental damage auras

Do you realize how people do not use those auras because ... they can only stack 2 auras ( max 3 ) for a very large majority of them ?

PS : staves have a higher crit chance.

Most weapons have 5% crit chances, the weapon types that have higher crit chances have it for a reason ( don't know why for scepters/staves tho ).


I bet that 2H Weapons are much ore used since Spectral Throw, and can have a really high dmg output.
This is fine.

You wont scale 2h anywhere near 1h, even when your gear is garbage, due to auras. You can easily build wrath + hatred without too many aura points, and 3 auras is also possible, even it is powerful and will give you enough damage with a crap weapon to clear everything at high speeds with spectral throw.

2h is fun, always were, but since it sucks its not widely used at endgame (outside of bows).

Show me an optimized build using hatred + wrath without gimping its survability, go on ( not including niche aura builds : they are a niche ).

Hints :
- ES users cannot since one will be discipline
- Armored users will use determination
- IR armor stacking users will use determination + grace
- Summoners will use vitality
- Many people will try to use their offensive aura slot to fill purity for elemental weakness maps / before they get good enough gear.


PS : hatred is as efficient with 2H than with 1H.
Which means = one offensive aura slot <=> as efficient for 2H users than1H users.

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgABAecEBwV9DH0OPA5ID8QQfxEvEZYXLxnXHNwdFB2qHwIksCcLKLUqOCymLR8tqC9vMgkyfjQKNsU26DdmOlI7fDvhQqNGcUcGSshMs1AwVgRW6lb1WK9aUlqmXIpfKl9qYIhhUmNDbEZtGW6qcFJwVnC7cmx2CHgNe9d943_GgKSDCYZghtGIQohrj0aP-pAbkNaTJ5fQmZqaE5tdn8uio6cIpyunNKiaqW6xkLQMtMW18rb3t9a4k7jKuT7AUcHFwfPC7MNtxp7YJNkT21nbXttu29Tcx-GI4vfjhOtj6-TsGPKX8uHz6vrS

Lowlife i think around 6k ES with vaal pact and either 5,6 or 7 auras i can't remember. Say what the hell you want but this is all 3 auras and discipline clarity etc, i don't care if you call it niche, it is an optimized build that mostly requires a shavs.

You can also with aura points afford to put on 3 60% on your mana and run something blood magic, i'm sure it won't be too hard creating a build for it.

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Fruz wrote:

Show me an optimized build using hatred + wrath without gimping its survability, go on ( not including niche aura builds : they are a niche ).

Hints :
- ES users cannot since one will be discipline
- Armored users will use determination
- IR armor stacking users will use determination + grace
- Summoners will use vitality
- Many people will try to use their offensive aura slot to fill purity for elemental weakness maps / before they get good enough gear.


PS : hatred is as efficient with 2H than with 1H.
Which means = one offensive aura slot <=> as efficient for 2H users than1H users.

bolded the wrong part. after 1.0.6 summons no longer need vitality due to built in leech/regen from passives

also none of my chars uses determination. armor formula is such that you get minimum amount of it or go FLAT OUT (like in 50k+). values inbetween change little (as in do not prevent 1hit KO from really dangerous mobs and already mitigate normal hits to comfortable level). thats why im not so convinced by 'all armor users would go for determination' too. ironskin granites/jades + armor mods on other flasks + end charges + IC take care of phys dmg that is below 1shot KO. and as armor does nothing for ele hits/spells/+elem dmg from maps etc focusing on it is not that smart anyway

if you play Scion (And in fact you should be playing scion) + alpha == 3 auras

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sidtherat wrote:

armor formula is such that you get minimum amount of it or go FLAT OUT (like in 50k+)

Iron reflexes + determination + double flask combo = 40k+ armor quite easily now ( It's dumb, I know, but it's more than possible. And determination makes it actually viable against big hits, because going from 25k+ to 40k+ does make a difference ).

If you play scion and spend eventually 20 points almost only about auras, then maybe it's gonna be efficient, but that's smply an investment ( 4 spell damage nodes for a melee build for example ? plus the travel costs ), and it's only normal.
On the other hand, the 2H build will have taken many 2H nodes instead of that, that's pretty fair.

I forgot about that new item, I'm not really playing summoner tho.
I'm wondering if they really do let go of vitality now.

"

Crackmonster wrote:

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgABAecEBwV9DH0OPA5ID8QQfxEvEZYXLxnXHNwdFB2qHwIksCcLKLUqOCymLR8tqC9vMgkyfjQKNsU26DdmOlI7fDvhQqNGcUcGSshMs1AwVgRW6lb1WK9aUlqmXIpfKl9qYIhhUmNDbEZtGW6qcFJwVnC7cmx2CHgNe9d943_GgKSDCYZghtGIQohrj0aP-pAbkNaTJ5fQmZqaE5tdn8uio6cIpyunNKiaqW6xkLQMtMW18rb3t9a4k7jKuT7AUcHFwfPC7MNtxp7YJNkT21nbXttu29Tcx-GI4vfjhOtj6-TsGPKX8uHz6vrS

Lowlife i think around 6k ES with vaal pact and either 5,6 or 7 auras i can't remember. Say what the hell you want but this is all 3 auras and discipline clarity etc, i don't care if you call it niche, it is an optimized build that mostly requires a shavs.

You can also with aura points afford to put on 3 60% on your mana and run something blood magic, i'm sure it won't be too hard creating a build for it.

Niche build can use double flat elemental auras, let's buff 2H weapons because of that !
Do you understand how ridiculous that is ? Oo

Now, to run 3 60% auras on mana, you basically need at the very least 55% reduced mana total <=> 16% reduced mana from the tree.
Do you know what that means ? that means that without the templar cluster, one needs to stack every single one of the other nodes but one or used alpha's howl ( and still need nodes of course ).

Plus you link a 117 points build ? wth ?
Have you actually been playing this game ?
Plus have fun with you 117 points build that has 4k ES with very good pieces of equipment and no life LOL.
Seriously, if you wanted to show a troll build, you could not have done it better.

There are numerous issues with 2 handers that will never be fixed, and I doubt even can as pretty much most games that have used this system (1hand, dual wield, 2hand) have never had even a remote ideas of balance.

As far as PoE:

We really only need to 6 link our main attack, which can leave it on the armor for non kaom/BoR users as it wouldn't really matter. Except for stuff like kaom's primacy and other uniques that boosts the attacks that are slotted into the weapon itself then there is little socketing reason to rely on a 2 hander. This leaves out everything but certain uniques and those really top damage rares (with certain skills to take advantage of higher damage per hit). And having two 6 links is usually overkill when most will be fine with one 6 link and having the rest be used to flesh out support/survival skills.

DPS for a 2 handers compared to a single handed weapon is really not a match for the loss of survivability that the loss of all the mods that a good shield would provide. DPS loss from a a 2nd weapon and all its mods is usually greater over times (less per hit) then changing to a 2 handed would provide (heck, look at the global crit and damage boosts a pair of daggers can provide).



So we need more reasons to slot the weapon itself with the skills we want to use, that means much better local only damage mods. We also need some mods altered to make up for the loss of 6 mods from a offhand weapon, likely doubling the max rolls some mods can get. Right now the ONLY thing a 2 handed weapon provides is damage per hit and some uniques that effect skills socketed in the weapon itself, which really isn't all that much when we consider the tradeoffs.

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Jiero wrote:

(heck, look at the global crit and damage boosts a pair of daggers can provide)

crit dagguer are broken imho, the obtainable dps outta crit dagguers is just ridiculous.

You forgot that 2H weapons bring an increased stun chance/duration, which can be a huge advantage correctly build.

Now, maybe some 2H gems would need some love ( = sweep ), or a new one would be a good thing.

You bring good points, there would be something relevant to discuss outta that ( instead of the "1H is superior because of auras and crit" ), that's kinda the same situation for DW.


Now, ST's hitbox works really well with 2H weapons, that + stun are two big advantages.

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Fruz wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

armor formula is such that you get minimum amount of it or go FLAT OUT (like in 50k+)

Iron reflexes + determination + double flask combo = 40k+ armor quite easily now ( It's dumb, I know, but it's more than possible. And determination makes it actually viable against big hits, because going from 25k+ to 40k+ does make a difference ).

If you play scion and spend eventually 20 points almost only about auras, then maybe it's gonna be efficient, but that's smply an investment ( 4 spell damage nodes for a melee build for example ? plus the travel costs ), and it's only normal.
On the other hand, the 2H build will have taken many 2H nodes instead of that, that's pretty fair.

I forgot about that new item, I'm not really playing summoner tho.
I'm wondering if they really do let go of vitality now.

it is not about the new item (that for me is not that hot anyway) but about passive tree changes - added life leech and life regen to passives. it is enough. flasks and rejuv totems can also be used and free one aura slot. it is enough now

as for the armor - it is the ancient story of '+99% extra dmg added as lightning'. for these maps armor does almost nothing and as such only few bosses really need/benefit from like 50k+ armor. because even with 100k armor it is that added elemental that will kill you. thats why i say that overstacking armor is more an ego boost/morale boost than real benefit. in some cases - sure, xtra crit rhoa charges, oak slams or that dreaded EK/bear traps or book-tornadoes are mitigated by armor.

but for typical map clear noone should bother with determination. flasks+grace+IR is really enough for it. and you can always turn it on if you need to fight that phys-only boss (that will get skipped anyway). for me if someone has to use determination alongside grace+ir and it is noticeable during non-boss map clear it means that it is high time to level up that grace from lvl 7..

people overvalue armor and undervalue the 'enough' concept.

as for the scion - invalesco has a nice thread somewhere when he one by one tells people how to build their build better as a scion. these 3 'wasted' nodes are a low price for all the perks that scion provides (btw correct way to reach aura nodes as scion when playing mele is trough eva circle - you go for IR anyway..)