What builds are actually better off not starting from the Scion?
" Unfortunately, it is not possible to not discuss about life as that, together with mana regen is the main reason why scion is so much stronger than HC-viable life-based shadows, witches and arguably rangers. Your build only has 192% incr. life, so there isn't any point in choosing scion over ranger. Trying to avoid the issue of life is like building a RT mace mara and asking someone else to make a better version from a marauder, when the obvious strength of shadow is the crit. Build of the Week 14
The first Righteous Fire/Non-Shavronne's/Shavronne's HC Shameless self-proclaimed theory-crafting extraordinaire and forum crusader | |
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While I understand the point you're trying to make, you're going about the discussion the wrong way. You consistently discredit builds just by saying it doesn't count because of the low life totals, and in earlier cases it doesn't count because it's not life based. Turning away people at a glance doesn't help your cause. It would be much better to accept that those builds are better as they are, state the reason why, and continue on about your thread. The goal should not be to discredit any build that doesn't show the Scion as superior, but to show that the Scion is superior in more cases than not when she shouldn't be.
As it stands the issues are localized around life-based witches and shadows, with a more overwhelming presence on shadows. The main reason being the point efficiency of the life circle. The best suggestion that was proposed so far (In my humble opinion) was a reconstruction of all 3 circles, such that the right side has 6% EV, 4% hp nodes, and the left side has 6% armour 4% life nodes, and the ES circle has 6% es, 4% life. This would actually balance out all the classes without providing a buff to the Scion, and here are the reasons why. 1) My favorite part of this suggestion is the hybrid life/ES nodes, hybrid life/ES is typically very weak and I don't see any builds that utilizes it. It would allow an easier( Read, cost effective) way of leveling ES based builds, as well as allowing a different defensive playstyle. 2) More importantly, providing life on the right side of the circle as well as the left in equal amounts, This would provide a fairly point effective EHP option for evasion/life hybrids, as if you add two nodes and split them by type each node is alternating 8% hp and 12% EV/armour/es. It would actually be a global buff to the available EHP on the tree, but without being focused on scion. It would lower point-efficiency for pure life, but provide greater point efficiency for hybrid builds. This essentially equals the playing field between the right and left side of the tree. 3) It makes sense thematically that the scion would be at the center of all the hybrid options. It also makes sense thematically based on the different "Paths" available to her start (Warrior/Hunter/Savant). Ideally each side would have a special large node akin to Revenge of the Hunted (IE 16% Armour/EV/(12% ES), and 10% life at the opposite sides of each of the Path nodes so that they don't specifically branch into anything but are rather point efficient for any class that chooses to pass through one side of it without starting as a scion. 4) This does not make the scion a more efficient start as filling out two or more circles would be very inefficient point-wise and defensive wise since it's generally more effective to buff one defensive type in relation to health. Instead this allows for other classes to supplement their EHP without having a need to cross the entire tree, and it allows the scion to get some EHP on her way to cross the tree. This of course in conjunction with the upcoming Shadow passive tree rework. Because as you say if they only buff the shadow side it would still only provide incentive for the Scion to enter the shadow area and wouldn't actually provide much of a difference from what's happening currently. |
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" tbh, I never did discredit anyone's builds. If you go through the thread, you'll see me having constantly had to tell people that no, their builds were better not being scions because of the life issue, because that is what it is. even in my original post i've already asked for a focus on HC, because in SC, anything's possible. Therefore if I come across as being a little irritated, it probably is that way because i've had to mention this countless of times in this thread. a reconstruction and an implementation of mixed circles is one solution. However, it's gonna be tough to implement without rendering the respective circles undesirable - which node would you prioritise in terms of granting access to it? ie hp, es or evasion node? 1) it would probably make those nodes OP for EB/MoM users and would be an indirect nerf to CI users tbh, especially if the %ES is reduced in order to make up for the %HP on it. 2) I definitely do believe the right outer pathway needs more HP nodes. However, the witch area is also in need of HP nodes as well. I believe that the circle of life and the mana regen starting area of the scion is quite op as it stands and needs to be balanced. I specifically don't understand the mana regen area. By all accounts, scion should have numerically weaker starting nodes. However, someone evidently overlooked the mana aspect. Even if all else is kept constant, a numerical nerf to the circle as well as the mana regen area would help to balance it out. Build of the Week 14
The first Righteous Fire/Non-Shavronne's/Shavronne's HC Shameless self-proclaimed theory-crafting extraordinaire and forum crusader | |
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I specifically didn't decrease the %es for that very reason, although I didn't consider EB MoM combo so that would render the hybrid life/es combo undoable. Everything else is solid.
They are in no way undesirable, they lose about 30-40% life% from just the circle but gain ~60-70% increased defenses which provides a multiplicative bonus to your overall EHP. I also agree that the starting mana node and notable should both be 20% mana regen for a combined total of 40% instead of 80%. This would make it lower than a witch/templar but higher than a shadow (Until the shadow start rework I'd imagine). The reason I didn't include anything about the witch is because the witches problem isn't directly linked to the scion, the witches starting area is the worst in the game for any life-based build. Rebalancing the scion won't influence her at all. Purely nerfing the lifewheel wouldn't do much to help the right side of the tree aside from nerfing the life totals of everyone else to better match the right side. That is hardly a solution in my opinion. The goal should be to blend the overall survivability of all the classes while maintaining that each class should be able to have diversity within their own roles. If a class has to cross the entire tree in order to just survive effectively (which is the current situation), there is a problem there. |
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I still don't quite follow where we are on the Spectral Throw/Bow build discussion here--both of Etup's builds for ST (mace and sword) are optimized as Mara or Ranger. For those builds, it's strictly a question of the Scion projectile damage start vs. the Ranger's life/eva start, with the Ranger being able to get a free 8% IAS node compared to Scion's 6%. The only way I can see Scion being more efficient is if there's some argument for finesse and the nearby lifenodes also being worse in comparison to something on the INT side of the tree, point for point.
Last edited by Uvne on Feb 6, 2014, 7:21:32 PM
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" This isn't about a ST/bow build discussion. This is about the inferiority of shadow and witch life-based builds as compared to scion, even when it's meant to be a shadow/witch meta - ie caster/trapper builds. As mentioned earlier: maras, duelists and templars already have easy access to the circle of life so they don't suffer. Etup's ST build can be either ranger or mara. Either way, it is still able to enter the circle of life easily since it's a 2h mace build, so it doesn't really suffer. Ultimately, everything goes through the circle of life. If you read the entire thread, you'll probably get an idea as to the points i'm making. Build of the Week 14
The first Righteous Fire/Non-Shavronne's/Shavronne's HC Shameless self-proclaimed theory-crafting extraordinaire and forum crusader | |
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I wanted to start up a summoner with the new patch and was trying to make it work with witch. After realizing that those 3 nodes at the start were going to cost me 17 nodes in total in order to get them and get out of the witch area on both sides, I gave up on that idea and made a Scion.
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" OK, it just seemed like the OP was deliberately excluding Ranger, but I suppose not. I'm not so sure that this is a Scion issue, or even an issue with the life circle primarily (although I agree that the life circle should be broken up, since no other place on the tree gives the same lifestacking point efficiency.) It's more that the current meta strongly promotes lifestacking and nothing has really been done to address life/ES hybrid viability. This makes a lot of the most efficient defensive options on the top-right side of the tree pretty bad, since builds tend either to go all-in for life, or go CI. I'm not really sure how to solve this, since making it more efficient to stack life and ES at the same time still doesn't address the issue with chaos damage maps. | |
" you are right. for ci bow ranger is also better than scion. "Path of nurfs" - LVL 100 + LVL 100 + LVL 100 ENDGAME REAVER
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I haven't read through this thread but I will just say that I am not sure how a summoner could be any better from a scion versus a witch. Unless your putting some kind of a different twist on it instead of just being a full summoner.
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