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They should be back up in approximately .Join up the Scion starting nodes please!
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Actually, after planning a number of builds, it does seem like the starting area may make a difference. However, that would mean that it would require a massive buff. DPS nodes at the starting area can and should be improved. However, the most glaring issue is still life. The circle of life and the Shaper notable is just too strong.
The only HP nodes that the scion will have trouble grabbing would be:
Spoiler
 Based on my calculations, Shadow's starting HP cluster (on the left) needs to be changed to 8%/8%/12% and witch (on the right) also to 8%/8%/12% with a reduction of all the 8% nodes in the scion's circle of life to 6%. This will make the shadow and witch start more competitive in terms of life. Shadow's notable sucks as well compared to Shaper. Shaper should just have its bonus halved. As it stands, 40% mana regen and 1% life regen is worth 4.5 small nodes. Shadow's mental acuity is only worth 3, with the 30% incr. crit chance not even that impressive compared to the 25% crit chance at witch start and at Heartseeker area. Even now, I really don't see why the scion starting nodes shouldn't be joined as per my post in feedback. By all means, buff shadow and witch to the high heavens and give them no reason at all to path into Scion, but don't restrict build diversity - join up Scion's nodes as well to open up options for other classes. 6 starting points for scion compared to 2 for each other class? This is favouritism, and it's unwanted. Build of the Week 14 The first Righteous Fire/Non-Shavronne's/Shavronne's HC Shameless self-proclaimed theory-crafting extraordinaire and forum crusader Last edited by Invalesco on Jan 24, 2014, 7:13:20 PM
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Didn't read, but if Invalesco says it needs to be done I agree.
Be ready. You're not paranoid, you're PREPARED.
I quit this game every few months and so should you to continue playing it in the future. The device is believed to have been dropped |
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"Yes. CI+MOM. Brain fart. But you're missing the point. Scion area is very strong, but the balance answer is to make Scion area weaker... not to throw up your hands, say "everyone's doing it," and make the area even stronger for your particular build. Alternative: buff non-Scion routes, especially outer circle to reach far-off keystones. Improving the connectivity of Scion area nodes will only attract more builds to that area. Obviously. We don't want every damn build either starting in the middle or traveling through it. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
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This is a poor solution, at best. All you've done is turn the other classes into ghetto Scions. Physical builds don't suffer from this problem. All the good physical builds are based on the other classes because... their starting nodes are much better. (you CAN build a physical scion, just be prepared to be 2-3 levels behind a similar duelist/ranger/marauder) When scion goes out, unless it's to opposite ends of the tree other classes can go back to the scion area just as easily. The scion area of the tree contains fairly niche keystones and (typically) average generic nodes. The only appeal of the scion area of the tree are the notables which are only really good if you can exploit all aspects of them (if you can't, they're ALSO generally worse than most focused notables you'd find elsewhere on the tree).
The ACTUAL problems are: CI and life/ES hybrid are in a bad place right now due to balance changes making the "wheel of ES" much less appealing Shadow starting area is somewhat weak Witch starting area is godawful How many times do you start as a shadow and say "damn, I could really use some of those nodes over there in witch"? It's generally a painful endeavour to go over and do stuff in witch because most nodes are... pretty lacklustre. So you end up spending a bunch of points over in the scion area or inefficiently go over to the ranger area because it's the closest area that's most relevant. In my eyes it's a far bigger crime in my eyes to say... "I'm using a bunch of int spells... TIME TO GO OVER TO RANGER! Let's just fly by all these completely irrelevant weapon nodes and/or frenzy nodes while we're at it!" and be correct. Like, if you're a marauder you go "okay, let's go over to duelist for more damage or templar for more durability". If you're a ranger you say "okay, let's go over to shadow for more crit or duelist for more defence". These are pretty reasonable trains of thought. For shadow it's "let's go over to ranger to grab... two crit nodes. Yes. This was clearly an efficient use of my points. Now to scramble and try to make the best of this." And finally, so no one can criticise me for only blasting solutions, if you were to put a gun to my head right now and say "Oaks, give scions the nerfbat so they're only used to cross the tree while making crossing the middle moderately unappealing for other classes", I'd probably make it so that the circles of life/ES/eva are hybrid life-armor/ES/eva on the "shorter"/"far" side of the circle and pure armor/ES/eva on the "close" side of the circle then probably shorten the routes to the center to compensate, most likely. (basically, make the middle point-wise easier to cross at the cost of making the points do less. Scions can use those extra points to pick up perks somewhere else, non-scions stay out of the middle because it's inefficient) If you were to give me longer though, I'd probably try and find a way to make the witch starting area more appealing for spellcasters. Probably buff the crit nodes, buff the specific elemental dmg nodes (seriously, why are these nodes weaker than generic spell damage nodes? Economy of actions says unless I'm cast on crit elemental hit I can't double dip) and add chaos resistance on the life nodes in witch most likely but I haven't thought much on it. Also, since in the reddit thread you seem to be having a hard time comprehending how to buff a class w/o buffing scion, just put the buffs on opposite sides of the class. Scion has to traverse inefficiently to get the buffs, more accessible to natural class since nodes near start are typically very efficient. Or, for instance, you could think about WHY a scion would go up and appropriately reposition stuff. For a shadow example, move swap the positions of the evasion/ES wheel and the crit wheel. If a scion's coming up for spell crit, it's harder to get all of it. If she's coming up for physical crit, well, chances are a ranger or shadow can still do it better because those things are closer now. It might buff say... a VP + CI + GR scion, but I'd argue that's probably a good thing since that sort of thing can only be done by going across the tree at the moment. |
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" CI doesn't work with MoM. I believe that the outer area definitely needs to be buffed, but I still believe that the scion area should be joined. Buff outer area and give no reason for the other classes to travel through the center. If they still travel through the center then buff the outer area even more. No point restricting access totally until it's been proven that the area is balanced. " 1. Life is the norm, not CI. CI needs a buff, but balances around shadow/witches should not be made around ES. They should be given enough opportunities to go for life. 2. The only reason some physical builds are better off not being a scion but a duelist or marauder is not just because their starting nodes are better. It is because they already have easy access to the circle of life. Also, there is nothing physical builds will stand to gain if the nodes are joined as in my op - simply because the bottom half of the scion tree doesn't have notables that are that desirable. The Sentinel notable isn't that desirable. Try and plan a life-based caster from the witch/shadow area and you'll see how desirable the Shaper notable is for caster classes and how frustrating it is for Scion to be able to access it and the other classes not being able to, as well as how frustrating it is to not be able to access the circle of life. 3. As i've already mentioned, the starting DPS nodes isn't the main problem. The Scion can easily access the starting points of any class. But it doesn't work the other way round. 4. Try and plan any shadow/witch caster build then do it from a scion's starting point. You'll realise that scions don't actually have problems going to the outer end of the tree. You may think the chances are better for a Ranger/Shadow if the nodes are moved around but I assure you that they are not. As long as Scion has easy access to 6 notables, the best 3 of which are at the top, and the other classes do not, there will be no solution. If all the starting notables and nodes get halved and the circle of life gets reduced to 6% with subsequent buffs to the witch/shadow starting hp nodes, only then do we have a fix outside of joining up the scion nodes. But I don't see that happening. TLDR; All of you, play shadows and witches and try to build a life-based character/caster and you'll understand. If you're a duelist or mara of course you wouldn't have problems. Because all your builds end up going through into the circle of life anyway. If you're a shadow or a witch, you can't access the circle of life but a scion always will. For that reason alone, any scion build will always be better than any shadow or witch build. Build of the Week 14 The first Righteous Fire/Non-Shavronne's/Shavronne's HC Shameless self-proclaimed theory-crafting extraordinaire and forum crusader Last edited by Invalesco on Jan 25, 2014, 7:44:07 AM
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Joining the nodes would only make the scion more point effecient. A lot of the scion builds use atleast 2 starter nodes.
I dont think merging the nodes would solve the issue for witch/shadow. It seems to me CI/ES needs to be better tuned. At this time its "viable" (GGG terms viable) but not on the same level as lifebased. Increasing the point efficiency on the witch/shadow life and the hybrid nodes would help those classes more than this, All-in approach. Life to atleast 8-8-12, mana/life nodes or better. Besides if you want to acces the lifewheel that bad why not suggest a reduction in points on the inner side of the evasion wheel ? From 7 to 3/4 points. This might make the Path of the Hunter of scion aswell more viable. Personally i would wait out the shadow changes. Before changing other class starts to buff the others. Not saying scion isnt OP Last edited by mYsca on Jan 25, 2014, 9:02:44 AM
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" It wouldn't benefit the scion at all. CI/ES shouldn't be compared directly to life. Life is the norm, not ES. Shadows/Witches should also be given the chance to build for life. Not to say that CI doesn't need a buff; it does. Agree that the starting hp nodes at witch/scion area need a buff. But that may be dangerous as the scion would still be able to access it. Look at it this way. As a caster, the scion can access the notables shaper, path of the savant, harrier, elemental dominion and mental acuity. A withc or a shadow caster cannot access shaper. Reduction in points on the inner side of the evasion wheel will not help life-based caster builds i'm afraid, especially when the area in question that is of interest is the mana regen/shaper area to the circle of life area. Build of the Week 14
The first Righteous Fire/Non-Shavronne's/Shavronne's HC Shameless self-proclaimed theory-crafting extraordinaire and forum crusader | |
" Here's my counter-example, a Life/ES-based Wander (Frenzy, Barrage, and Spell Trap) that can be built as either a Witch or a Shadow. This build has no use for either the Scion inner circle or the "circle of life": My intention is not to prove you wrong, but to demonstrate that Scion-centric build principles aren't the only game in town. In my view, both the Scion inner circle and the circle of life are hard to cherry-pick and consequently require an excessive skill-point budget to exploit. Case in point: the 10-node circle of life has only one 12% life node. The rest of the nodes are just 8% life, with only a middling 12% Increased Physical Damage node as a payoff bonus. That's pretty mediocre compared to the 8-8-18 Thick Skin cluster and the pair of 8-8-12 Life clusters in the lower right of the Ranger area. A similar analysis holds for the 10-node circle of ES nodes at the top of the Scion area, which contains nothing but lackluster 6% ES nodes. What's really lacking is the absence of +1 Charge Notables in the central Scion area. To specialize in one of the three Charge types, the Scion must take a more convoluted path than any of the other six characters. With the exception of the Scion's 18% Elemental Resist cluster, the Scion's starting clusters are all underpowered compared to comparable clusters elsewhere. That makes the Scion a sub-optimal choice for builds like the one above, which exploits high-value Notables and clusters in the outermost ring of the Passive Tree. The only factor that would compel me to travel to the center would be if I needed one of the three Keystones tucked beneath the Witch and Shadow starting nodes. Last edited by RogueMage on Jan 25, 2014, 2:55:42 PM
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" Nice try, however yours is a niche build. The game should be balanced around the main builds not around the niche builds. Not to say that your build isn't effective. It very likely is, and is also unique. However, even for a build as niche as this, the scion version (below) is also on par if not better. Also, the amount of life you got is not very high. As i've mentioned quite a few times, the threshold at which scion really outshines shadows/witches maybe even ranger is at ~210% incr. life. " You're trying to count it wrongly. For the scion life cluster: 5 x 8% = 40% incr. life for scion 4 x 8% = 32% incr. life for scion For others: 5 nodes to get to 8-8-18 cluster = 34% incr. life 4 points to get to 8-8-12 cluster = 28% incr. life Shadows and witches don't usually build a tree all the way to that area. Also, you must have missed my post where I mentioned that the scion can get to anyone's start area and grab anyone's nodes but the other classes cannot. No one said that a scion had to grab her own ES nodes! " The scion is perfectly fine taking a 'convulated path' (i don't really find it convulated), especially when the convulated paths have plenty of powerful nodes. Build of the Week 14 The first Righteous Fire/Non-Shavronne's/Shavronne's HC Shameless self-proclaimed theory-crafting extraordinaire and forum crusader Last edited by Invalesco on Jan 25, 2014, 2:59:08 PM
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scion life circle is incredible life-efficiency compared to other areas. it might be 8% with one 12% but you need to get there ONCE and then your next point grants you 8%+
all the other, 'better' life clusters might be of higher direct efficiency, but you still need to get there and that makes them in most cases a LOT less efficient than life circle because all the +10 nodes are not directly contributing to anything in a visible way. sure these add up and make a difference but if you are after life you better take the life circle and then these +30stat nodes |
