GGG vs replay-ability vs confidence?

I read the OP, but not all the tl;dr replies (I've been drinking).

I think a big thing here is the term "viable" or "viability".
So many PoE players say "I can clear a map twice (or thrice) as fast as you, your build isn't viable".
That's "optimal", not "viable".

If I can clear maps without dying, the build is "viable".

IDGAF if your build with 300 ex worth of gear is "better", if I can complete content and not die, that's a "viable" build.

So many haters when I say "searing bond is awesome now (since the last patch)", etc.
It may not be as good as your low-life shav's flicker striker with mirrored BiS dagger, etc, but that does not mean it isn't viable.

I have fun playing my "shitty" builds, who are you to tell me how to have fun?

Have I used enough quotation marks yet? If not, """""""""""""""

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Robert_Paulson wrote:

I read the OP, but not all the tl;dr replies (I've been drinking).

I think a big thing here is the term "viable" or "viability".
So many PoE players say "I can clear a map twice (or thrice) as fast as you, your build isn't viable".
That's "optimal", not "viable".

If I can clear maps without dying, the build is "viable".

IDGAF if your build with 300 ex worth of gear is "better", if I can complete content and not die, that's a "viable" build.

So many haters when I say "searing bond is awesome now (since the last patch)", etc.
It may not be as good as your low-life shav's flicker striker with mirrored BiS dagger, etc, but that does not mean it isn't viable.

I have fun playing my "shitty" builds, who are you to tell me how to have fun?

Have I used enough quotation marks yet? If not, """""""""""""""

Some people have more fun facerolling everything like a god. Viable sometimes isn't fun if your character is slow and tedious to play. Most builds are viable even with crappy gear, you will just progress really slowly and that's not that fun.

"

No, by meta-game I mean the game of efficiently building new characters in the game. It changes the dynamic from simply defeating the content to how quickly and effectively can that content be beaten. It allows for competition and secondary goals against others and oneself.

Thx for that explanation :). In light of this explanation, my point still remains valid i think. The dedicated gamers already fast-forward in what you consider the meta-game. One of the reasons why this is so beneficial is the following.

player A : runs to maps in 36 hours takes it slow etc and grinds a bit along the way.
Player B : runs to maps in 12 hours skipping content and not gearing up (abusing party play for hard encounters, like bosses)

If player B die's on his run, his actual speed for reaching endgame will still exceed that of player A. (not to mention if his party did not die they can just boost him, trivializing anything the game has to offer)

The top-ladder shows exactly zero interest in the "meta-game" you speak off. And partying up for boss encounters can be hardly called "meta-game" experience :'). It's just common sense that party play trivializes PoE.

The fact is, in PoE there is almost no skill needed to clear the content, either in
early-game ore end-game. It is mostly gear checks after gear checks. And party play even trivializes the gear-checks due to weak AI.

There is no real "meta-game" present in PoE, unless you call maths, common sense and applying experience "skill" or meta-game?

(people starting a boss in single-mode and then finishing it with 6 players in 1/6 the time normaly needed is an example of this, this could be considered "skill", i don't but some people might)

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Dedicated/Hardcore gamers do rapidly reach end-game, but if you actually look at the one week race statistics GGG posted you'd see that the majority of deaths occurred in early-mid game. You said it yourself that normal and cruel present no challenge and yet in a week race cruel is the most dangerous content in the game. That is because normally with precautions you could trivialize the content by farming till you have the gear, but when there is a character making meta-game it changes the dynamic and creates new challenges. Cruel just happens to be where the content really starts to get its teeth and taking big risks or playing carelessly gets a person bit.

This point is fairly skewered, the reason people that fast forward die in cruel atm is because you can run it faster solo due to the new "party" buffs to monsters. This results in skipping packs and dying on the run to the next quest. However the same would happen if that player did the same in maps.

The only reason this does not happen in maps at the same rate is because maps are done with a team, abusing aura's and "safety in numbers".
Let any of those "dedicated players" do there first maps solo, and they would die faster then you could type alt-f4.

This results in statistics where cruel "appears" to be the most deadly, while in reality maps are far more deadly, just more trivialized because of team-play. And running quest solo's has been proven to be faster then in a party.


There is absolutely no reason why the "gear-checks" should not be attained faster, without impacting the current "end-game" since viable =/= BiS.

I tend to pick a build and stick with it, even if it struggles. I play HC, so struggling means I get to replay it and refine the build slightly. It's slow, but I have time. Right now my "struggling" builds are a glacial hammer/shield rush build and a Poison/Burning arrow build.

Since this seems to be a much more constructive thread than most of the drop rate complaints I just want to drop a little factoid that really needs to be considered regarding drop rates.

GGG can only realistically ramp drop rates up, they don't have leeway to make a mistake in that regard. They can not give us something and then decide it was a poor decision and take it back. The uproar would be massive.

That said, you have to look at it from their point of view. IF they were to consider any kind of "improvement" to drop rates, they're really walking on eggshells with those numbers.

Just something I feel is worth taking into consideration when talking about this.

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Cronk wrote:

They've increased and decreased drop rates of all kinds of items over the years, there's never been a single 'uproar' about any of them 'after' the event. For God's sake, Kaoms Heart, the most famous name in the game was halved in power overnight - not one single thread demanding Kaoms should be put back to its legacy level. That's just the tip of the iceburg of all the up and down tweaking that's taken place.

There has not been a single change in overall drop rates since the beginning of Open Beta save for maps. Low and behold, the changes to maps have all been beneficial to the player, they have never nerfed them.

Any drop rate change prior to OB is irrelevant, because everybody was playing in CB knowing that their characters would be wiped and any accumulated wealth was flushed down the toilet.

The changes to admittedly overpowered uniques have indeed come with massive uproar. Are you serious? Do I really have to dig up the hundreds of threads full of people whining that they don't have access to Beta uninques even though it has no effect on them whatsoever?

"

Cronk wrote:

As for eggshells? Where are the eggshells when builds get nerfed? Where are the eggshells when the latest OP Unique enters the game? Where are the eggshells when ever more items are added to the already to large RNG item pool? But, oh, wait, minor changes to the drop rates of some specific items, yes, that's eggshells... because... no, you don't say do you, you just predict something happening that has no historical precedent...

Same thing, you just weren't paying attention when people absolutely lost their shit over the CwDT nerf. A completely necessary nerf, but people don't care, they'll bitch no matter what. How about the big aura change with release? That wasn't even a direct nerf and people still felt it was necessary to make a new thread to accompany the dozen others on the first page of GD to bitch about it. For shits sake, some people even QQd about the change to snapshotting BM auras with covenant/malachais. This was a known glitch that GGG had said would be fixed for ages, but people were appalled when they couldn't do an exploit any more.

Auxium coming out at a time when CI already ruled the game generated a fair amount of QQ too. But apparently you weren't paying attention to any of this.


By the way, out of curiosity I clicked your profile and went to the characters tab. You have exactly ONE character. A level 36 witch in standard league. Now logic would dictate that maybe you play nemesis and delete characters when you die, but no. You don't have any challenges or achievements or anything done. You don't even play this game.

Do you get paid to be a professional troll or what?

"

Since this seems to be a much more constructive thread than most of the drop rate complaints I just want to drop a little factoid that really needs to be considered regarding drop rates.

GGG can only realistically ramp drop rates up, they don't have leeway to make a mistake in that regard. They can not give us something and then decide it was a poor decision and take it back. The uproar would be massive.

That said, you have to look at it from their point of view. IF they were to consider any kind of "improvement" to drop rates, they're really walking on eggshells with those numbers.

Just something I feel is worth taking into consideration when talking about this.

I just read that response and i would like to point out that there are already systems in the game in place that allow for this change to happen without even touching the drop rates.

I am talking about the character specific rare quest rewards. There is absolutely nothing that prevents GGG from making these RNG determined quest rewards into "static" items that are "viable" ore "mediocre" for the level of difficulty they are received.

This would result in theory-crafters having a lot of fun with there builds pre-end-game.

Like i mentioned earlier in this thread, there is really no excuse to not both cater to
theory-crafters and single-hero endurance(hardcore) players.

The theory-crafter will probably enjoy his build and do some maps, enjoy his build if it is viable, and realize he can pursue the real "hardcore endgame" which is located in a time investment endurance, if he so desired.

If not he can start his next theory-craft and come back to the former build when he see's fit.

This will have absolutely no impact on the top-ladder or "hardcore" within this game. Since this is located in gathering "BiS" gear and a time investment to go from lvl 75 --> 100.

Note : it will impact the hardcore players in the sense that casual's will have more independence of the economy, resulting in a situation where the hardcore can no longer scam/flip the casuals as they do know. The question then comes up, is this a bad thing for the community?

In fact, will it not make the end-game even MORE hardcore? This would be totally in tune with what GGG promotes.

The underlying principle of this is that GGG could gain more $$$ from the theory-crafters, without impacting the $$$ from the "hardcore" customers, since there end-game remains.
I just think they lack confidence in the complexity of there own system to cater to
theory-crafters. And i feel this lack of confidence is not right. There are plenty of systems in place that promote replay-ability. Even when the player is presented with "viable" items, the system is so in-depth he will probably desire to make a new build. If he judges whether he should make a new character on past experience, then in the current system he might resign from PoE (a time vs reward issue comes to mind). However this can easily be altered without impacting the hardcore within this game.

Edit : i forgot to note that this would result in a better overall "fun game experience" and this in turn would lead to more "player retention" which i would imagine would result in more $$$.

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morbo wrote:

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Boem wrote:

Would you stop having fun when your build comes together and it is viable for end-game content
(this does not include BiS items, just viable)

When the build is endgame viable, my fun only begins.

That stuff before maps is just a tutorial and a chore.

These two sentences resume perfectly my feelings;-)