How can Dual Strike + Melee Splash outdmg Cleave? (aoe dmg)

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CliveHowlitzer wrote:

It is hard to say. I don't necessarily agree that every skill needs to be exactly comparable to other skills of the same type. Especially if there are certain ways you can build around that skill which you can't do with others. I am not qualified to argue if cleave is able to do that as I only ever really used cleave in race scenarios pre-nerf. Of which I can certainly say it is not the best way to go now.

I'm not saying it needs to be comparable to other skills of the same type 'always'. I'm saying there needs to be a moment where it is better. A certain situation or type of gameplay where it's needed. If the skill is flatout worse thn any other option there is no reason to use it. (Unless for just wanting to use that skill)

Skill balance creates diversity which is what this game is about. If a skill is flatout worse and people notice that, most of them will switch to the superior skill except for some niche type of player.

(Cough, Whirlwind barb d3, cough)

Also, a quick look at the Cleave patch notes, cleave gem topic and the tons of topics about cleave in general show a huge decline in people using it. Most of them prolly stopped using it just because it's not OP anymore but some just realised it was worse thn every other option.

I hope one of the DEV's can clear this up for me.

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CliveHowlitzer wrote:

It is hard to say. I don't necessarily agree that every skill needs to be exactly comparable to other skills of the same type. Especially if there are certain ways you can build around that skill which you can't do with others. I am not qualified to argue if cleave is able to do that as I only ever really used cleave in race scenarios pre-nerf. Of which I can certainly say it is not the best way to go now.

They're not comparable IF they do something more interesting than just "numbers". In essence, you can make the numbers kinda sorta comparable and then make the mechanics of the skills wildly different. Exact comparability is never desired, even with just numbers. Risk-reward should factor into number comparability pretty heavily.

Interesting melee skills:
- Reave: Increasing AoE mechanics
- Cyclone: AoE Range based on weapon type, movement
- Leap Slam: Movement
- Lightning Strike: Creates projectiles
- Spectral Throw: Creates boomerang projectiles
- Glacial Hammer: Freezing
- Infernal Blow: Exploding corpses
- Flicker Strike: Consumes charges, teleportation
- Dominating Blow: Summoner melee build

"Numbers":
- Ground Slam (stunning puts it right on the fence between interesting and not)
- Sweep (knockback isn't pronounced enough)
- Heavy Strike (knockback and stun aren't pronounced)
- Cleave (flerp derp)
- Double Strie (flerp derp)
- Dual Strike (flerp derp)
- Elemental Hit (flerp derp)

"Support melee skills":
- Frenzy
- Shield Charge
- Whirling Blades
- Viper Strike
- Puncture

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pneuma wrote:

They should have reduced Dual Strike's damage just a tad, then buffed dual-wielding overall.

15% block and 1.1x aspd is not competitive with 1h+shield, especially after the damage is no longer 2x as high as other melee builds.

Yep. One problem dual-wielding has is that a good weapon for a melee build will have mostly local mods on it. So with 1h+shield versus dual-wielding, it's a choice between having an off-hand that gives a bunch of (mostly defensive) global boosts to your character, versus having to find two good weapons that don't interact much with one another.

In the same vein, the really bad attacks for dual-wielders are the ones that alternate weapons. (This sort of applies to Cleave as well, although it hasn't quite been reduced to 'half damage from each weapon', which is what an alternating attack boils down to.) At least if an attack uses only your main weapon, you can use the off-hand weapon as a stat stick and attack speed booster (attack speed is still averaged across both weapons even if you always attack with the same weapon). You end up being forced to choose a weapon for your off-hand that is incompatible with the attack in order to force the attack to use your main hand. It's a bit unfortunate, as GGG has obviously put a lot of effort into off-hand attack animations, but alternating weapons is something that players will naturally want to avoid in any game of this sort unless they're given a significant incentive to do so.

Here's my opinion. 200% damage effectiveness on Dual Strike is the bonus that's out of line. The developers (or at least Mark) have stated that Dual Strike was meant to be comparable with other "roughly double-damage" abilities, including Double Strike and Heavy Strike. However, those two both have less than 200% net damage effectiveness; off the top of my head, Double Strike is 140% (70%x2) and Heavy Strike is 150%. On paper, this looks fine at first - two-handed weapons tend to have higher base damage, so even a Double Strike Longsword @ 140% DE will out-DPS two Copper Swords Dual Striking @ 200% DE. The problem comes in at the end-game, when supports like Melee Splash are available, and suddenly all the other melee dual-wield options seem weaker in comparison to Melee Splash + Dual Strike.

Thus, I think what needs to be done is that Dual Strike needs a damage effectiveness nerf somehow. Probably 70% or 80% instead of 100% as it is now. I'd say 80% since it has less increased phys damage at higher gem levels already.

Then, to compensate for such a game-breaking build-breaking nerf, buff the general dual-wield bonus in some way. Maybe 20% more attack speed instead of 10%. Maybe add a % more physical damage as well (10% more attack damage while dual-wielding would be nice. A lore excuse would be that the rhythm of swinging two weapons in succession instead of being hindered by a shield allows for hits to be more impactful).

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pneuma wrote:

The only reason to dual wield right now is Dual Strike since it has 200% DE (single target). In a 2L with MSplash, that's 168%DE to the main target, 138%DE to the nearby targets.

Cleave used to be the only reason since it had 140% DE (AoE). In a 2L with MPD, that's 210% (physical) DE in an AoE.

Now Cleave has 84% DE (compare with Ground Slam at 80% DE). In a 2L with MPD, that's 126% (physical) DE in an AoE.

I did some quick calcs for how Dual Strike would work at different DEs.

80% tooltip (160% single target) in a 2L with MSplash: 134.4% DE to the main target, 110% DE to nearby targets.

85% tooltip (170% single target) in a 2L with MSplash: 142.8% DE to the main target, 117.3% DE to nearby targets.

90% tooltip (180% single target) in a 2L with MSplash: 151.2% DE to the main target, 124.2% DE to nearby targets.

I think 80% tooltip DE for Dual Strike would be fair if general dual wield bonuses were buffed appropriately (in my opinion, adding 10% more attack damage to the current bonuses would work splendidly).

With 10% more attack damage:

Cleave + MPD = 138.6% "final physical DE" compared to current 126% physical DE
80% Dual Strike + Melee Splash: 147.84% to the main target, 121% to nearby targets

Note that this would make Cleave + MPD on par with Dual Strike + Melee Splash as it currently is for physical AoE damage.

Dual Strike will really out DPS Cleave even you put MPD... 60% reduction on phys./elem. damage that comes from Auras/Added Elem. Damage.

Added Elemental Damage Helps alot to increase DPS, specially if your attack speed type build.


I'll give guys example: Max Quality, Max Level Gems

Aura: +100 Elem.Damage
Added Elem Damage: +50 Elem.Damage
Weapon Attack: +200 Phys.Damage
Attacks Per Sec: 1.55


Cleave w/ MPD:
Physical Multiplier:(0.6)(1.76)(1.59)=1.67904
Elemental Multipler:(0.6)(1.76)=1.056
Attack Speed Multiplier:(1.10)=1.10

Total Physical Damage: 335.808
Total Elemental Damage: 158.4
Overall Damage(DPS): 605.88 x 2(same weapon) = 1211.76






Dual Strike w/ Melee Splash(Main Target):
Physical Multiplier:(1.57)(0.82)=1.2874
Elemental Multipler:(1.57)(0.82)=1.2874
Attack Speed Multiplier:(1)=1

Total Physical Damage: 257.48
Total Elemental Damage: 193.11
Overall Damage(DPS): 698.4145 x 2(same weapon) = 1396.829

Dual Strike w/ Melee Splash(Other Target):
Physical Multiplier:(1.57)(0.69)=1.0833
Elemental Multipler:(1.57)(0.69)=1.0833
Attack Speed Multiplier:(1)=1

Total Physical Damage: 216.66
Total Elemental Damage: 162.495
Overall Damage(DPS): 587.69025 x 2(same weapon) = 1175.3805


You can see there's a big difference between Difference Between Cleave and Dual Strike Main Target DPS and very small difference between Cleave and Dual Strike Other Target DPS. This means that to have a break even you need lots of mobs to hit.

BTW. I over calculated the physical damage part to give cleave a fighting chance in calculation... mostly elemental damage is bigger than physical damage if your dual wielding w/c makes MPD worthless.

EDIT: I almost forgot the quality of Dual Strike: 80% crit chance... w/c make it more monstrous.

Well actually i want use both of them...

Dual Strike + Cleave + Multistrike + Life Leech w/ Bringer of Rain

Use cleave on mobs and Dual Strike on rares/uniques

The real weakness of Dual Strike is in the lack of the second 6 slot for abilities.

A Two-Handed cleave build gets a six slot attack and another 6 slot option. Dual wield gets 2 3-slot options. As a result, Dual Strike characters have a slightly weaker starting point.

Because AoE is lower with DS+MS, and you need a target for it to work.

Cleave lets you easily kite (unilke reave) and can have a great AoE with the Increased Area of Effect support.

It would be best to use both, but you can only have one 5-link unless you're using wings of entropy.

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adghar wrote:

Thus, I think what needs to be done is that Dual Strike needs a damage effectiveness nerf somehow. Probably 70% or 80% instead of 100% as it is now. I'd say 80% since it has less increased phys damage at higher gem levels already.

Totally, man, nerf it to the ground. Give it a spork treatment.

Keep nerfing, guys, keep asking for less and less fun skills. GGG will love less players and less money!

Let me remind you all that dual wield cleave's combined damage effectiveness is 120%
Dual Strike's combined effectiveness is 200%

DS with MS does about 136% effective damage in AoE.
Cleave with Conc. Eff. has an effectiveness of 195%

YET ON FIELD TESTING THE SPLASH DAMAGE TAKES THE SAME AMOUNT OF HP AS THE SWING From CLEAVE?!?!?!
Now lets not forget that Dual Strike Also damages 1 target with full damage each swing as well as not being gimped by small as fuck aoe of conc. effect.
Explain this to me please.