How can Dual Strike + Melee Splash outdmg Cleave? (aoe dmg)

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Idioticus wrote:

cleave may be outclassed by dual strike when dual wielding, big surprise. Does dual strike outclass infernal blow, glacial hammer, etc when dual wielding?

Perhaps certain skills are made for certain weapons, but are allowed to be used by other weapons just in case someone manages to accomplish a build that works with them regardless of disadvantages.

I see your point but it isn't relevant to the subject at hand.
Both skills are intended to be used with dual weapons. (Cleave can be used without yes)

The skills you just summed up are all intended to be used with a single weap even though you can dual wield them (which has proven most ineffective till today)

P.s. Even if you would use Cleave with a 2h, it get's outclassed by Double strike + melee splash. Again, makes no sense at all.

Cleave is not meant to be a 'Dual Wield' ability. The devs have stated that the only reason it swings both weapons together rather than alternating like almost every other skill is because the art people did it that way. They nerfed the crap out of DW cleave at release to discourage the perception that Cleave is a DW ability.

Dual Strike is supposed to basically be THE reason to dual wield. It's one of the most powerful skills in the game, and the cost of using it is that you have to Dual Wield to use it.

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kaross579 wrote:

Cleave is not meant to be a 'Dual Wield' ability. The devs have stated that the only reason it swings both weapons together rather than alternating like almost every other skill is because the art people did it that way. They nerfed the crap out of DW cleave at release to discourage the perception that Cleave is a DW ability.

Dual Strike is supposed to basically be THE reason to dual wield. It's one of the most powerful skills in the game, and the cost of using it is that you have to Dual Wield to use it.

Seeing as how it is the only ability in the game that actually uses both weaps and is AOE i'm saying it's a dual wield skill. Intended or not doesn't matter. It's imbalanced the way it is and outclassed by other abilities. (DW, 2H and 1H, for that matter)

DW: Dual Strike + Melee splash
2h: Double Strike + Melee splash
1h: Reave.

This is me.. Not getting it.

Right now it looks like this and represents 99% of builds:

Dual weilding : dual strike + splash outdps any other combo
1 hand (mostly daggers coz rest just suck) : reave or double strike + splash
2 hand : spectral throw or double strike + splash OR ground slam stun

Cleave just sux too much now to even consider it as useful skill. Choose your poison.

The only reason to dual wield right now is Dual Strike since it has 200% DE (single target). In a 2L with MSplash, that's 168%DE to the main target, 138%DE to the nearby targets.

Cleave used to be the only reason since it had 140% DE (AoE). In a 2L with MPD, that's 210% (physical) DE in an AoE.

Now Cleave has 84% DE (compare with Ground Slam at 80% DE). In a 2L with MPD, that's 126% (physical) DE in an AoE.

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The change to Cleave was a good one. Now it damages comparably to the other melee skills, but they should not have only changed Cleave. They should have reduced Dual Strike's damage just a tad, then buffed dual-wielding overall.

15% block and 1.1x aspd is not competitive with 1h+shield, especially after the damage is no longer 2x as high as other melee builds.

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EDIT: DE stands for "Damage Effectiveness", or "Final Damage Multiplier".

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Vandenreich wrote:

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kaross579 wrote:

Cleave is not meant to be a 'Dual Wield' ability. The devs have stated that the only reason it swings both weapons together rather than alternating like almost every other skill is because the art people did it that way. They nerfed the crap out of DW cleave at release to discourage the perception that Cleave is a DW ability.

Dual Strike is supposed to basically be THE reason to dual wield. It's one of the most powerful skills in the game, and the cost of using it is that you have to Dual Wield to use it.

Seeing as how it is the only ability in the game that actually uses both weaps and is AOE i'm saying it's a dual wield skill. Intended or not doesn't matter. It's imbalanced the way it is and outclassed by other abilities. (DW, 2H and 1H, for that matter)

DW: Dual Strike + Melee splash
2h: Double Strike + Melee splash
1h: Reave.

This is me.. Not getting it.

I believe Chris actually came out and said that Cleave was never meant to use both weapons at once. It was meant to alternate, just as most other skills do when using two weapons. However, animation guys screwed it up and it couldn't be changed after so many people had used it. I wish I could find the quote. But I know he said it was meant to alternate weapons. It just got botched along the line.

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eragon1111 wrote:

Right now it looks like this and represents 99% of builds:

Dual weilding : dual strike + splash outdps any other combo
1 hand (mostly daggers coz rest just suck) : reave or double strike + splash
2 hand : spectral throw or double strike + splash OR ground slam stun

Cleave just sux too much now to even consider it as useful skill. Choose your poison.

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pneuma wrote:

The only reason to dual wield right now is Dual Strike since it has 200% DE (single target). In a 2L with MSplash, that's 168%DE to the main target, 138%DE to the nearby targets.

Cleave used to be the only reason since it had 140% DE (AoE). In a 2L with MPD, that's 210% (physical) DE in an AoE.

Now Cleave has 84% DE (compare with Ground Slam at 80% DE). In a 2L with MPD, that's 126% (physical) DE in an AoE.

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The change to Cleave was a good one. Now it damages comparably to the other melee skills, but they should not have only changed Cleave. They should have reduced Dual Strike's damage just a tad, then buffed dual-wielding overall.

15% block and 1.1x aspd is not competitive with 1h+shield, especially after the damage is no longer 2x as high as other melee builds.

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EDIT: DE stands for "Damage Effectiveness", or "Final Damage Multiplier".

This sums up exactly what my problem is.
@pneuma, thanks for the better job at clearing that up. Like I said, not so good with numbers/math. But basically, every time you get an increase in dmg (skill gem lvl up, passive, gear) the difference between having a 2l/6l cleave compared to a dual strike melee splash grows. Dual strike flat out outdmgs cleave in an aoe fight. Dual strike is a single target skill and cleave is an aoe. It shouldn't be able to do more aoe dmg under the exact same modifiers/increases etc. Cleave should do more thn Dual Strike in an aoe with 2/6links and the exact same gear used in both.

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CliveHowlitzer wrote:

I believe Chris actually came out and said that Cleave was never meant to use both weapons at once. It was meant to alternate, just as most other skills do when using two weapons. However, animation guys screwed it up and it couldn't be changed after so many people had used it. I wish I could find the quote. But I know he said it was meant to alternate weapons. It just got botched along the line.

I believe you but that doesn't change the fact that it should be comparable instead of flat out worse thn any other skill that isn't even naturally an AOE. That just makes no sense at all. The cleave nerf was needed, i'm not arguing about that. But now the skill is unbalanced compared to other skills. There is no advantage at all to take cleave in any build. 1h/2h/dw and phys or ele, other skills are always better.

Unless i'm missing something here i'm pretty sure that there needs to be another balancing.

I got the answer... because different skills work better with different weapons... Try using Dual Strike with a shield and see where that gets ya. The cost of using cleave is a lot cheaper too.

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IamtheAxeMan wrote:

I got the answer... because different skills work better with different weapons... Try using Dual Strike with a shield and see where that gets ya. The cost of using cleave is a lot cheaper too.

1. Dual Strike can't be used with an shield.
2. There isn't any weapon that does a better job cleave+ (insert random dps support gem) vs dual strike + melee splash.

That's the entire point mate.. Dual strike is always better. No matter what weapon you use. There isn't any situation where Cleave is better. It's worse thn another skill in every setup.
It's worse dw, 2h, 1h and for both ele and phys.

Again, reave in 1h, double strike in 2h and dual strike in dw all outperform cleave in every setup possible due to the way they scale. By nerfing Cleave (which was needed, dear god dunno how many times I need to repeat that) every other skill has become wayyy better in every situation. Those skills either need to be toned down so that cleave is the better option for aoe in some situations instead of flatout being the worst in every situation.

It doesn't matter that you are using 1 gem extra to get aoe on those skills since they do more dmg on a 2l/3l/4l/5l/6l. Instead of really sacrificing something to get aoe, you are making an superior aoe thn an original aoe skill. For example, you can equip any support gem you want to Cleave and Dual Strike + melee splash will still outdmg it. That's just bonkers mate. And the more increases you get, the worse it becomes.

And to get something clear, i'm not complaining. I'm thinking with the rest here about game balance and to bring these things to the attention of the devs. I mean, everyone wants to play the best and most balanced version of this game as possible.

It is hard to say. I don't necessarily agree that every skill needs to be exactly comparable to other skills of the same type. Especially if there are certain ways you can build around that skill which you can't do with others. I am not qualified to argue if cleave is able to do that as I only ever really used cleave in race scenarios pre-nerf. Of which I can certainly say it is not the best way to go now.