345 new Vendor Formulas: A suggestion for actually *crafting* gear

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JIIX wrote:

Implementation issue speculation

I wonder if GGG would have to hardcode the 345 recipe.

For the level 20% gem recipe, I would believe they did not make a code specifically for each gem.

Do you think the formula could be simplified to a more generic form.

Unfortunately the current itemlevels for body armour is just wonky enough that you couldn't easily establish any easy algorithm; it would probably be easiest just to hardcode all of those. For all of the others, it would be pretty easy; (ar/es helm)+(ar/ev helm)->(next pure ar helm of typelevel less than typelevel of both inputs)

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Faerindel wrote:

"All of these formulas would give rare output if two rares are used as inputs, and magic output if two magic items are used as inputs."

How this would work with the exclusive defence mods (I mean ES in ES' armours, and so on)?

The output rare would be unidentified and randomly (re)rolled.

I must be honest and say i prefer the simple general recepies instead of a million small specific ones. In PoE you really have to compare how much value you add to the game as opposed to how much simplicity you remove, PoE already is very heavy to get into. You are maybe adding 2-4 times as many recepies as there are in the game right now for almost no change in actual play except for a tiny fraction of players.

If you condensed it into a formula like:

Combining two unidentified rare, two unidentified magic, or two normal items of the same item slot but of a different armour type with an orb of transmutation, will create an unidentified or normal item that is either a hybrid armour type if two different pure armours were used or a pure armour type matching the common denominator in the two hybrid armours used to create it. The base item will be the best armour of that armour type for that item slot that exists with a level requirement equal to or less than the lowest level required to use either of the two base items used. The ilvl will be that of the lowest ilvl item used in the formula.

I added that it must be unindentified and made it more general meaning any types of armours can be matched but the output base armour will be determined by the lowest type of armour used, and the ilvl restricted like in regular recepies. I think it is only fair that if you want to create a new item of your desired type you need to give up the chance to identify the two rare items in question, in order to identify the item you would like.

As you can see this is not so easy to wrap your head around, and i would think that unless you can further condense it into a much much simpler formula then it will be too much to implement for the sake of simplicity, the art of game design, because in order to really use it people must first understand it. Also what i wrote does not account for the mismatch between highest level items base level requirements of different types, but that should not matter as this is not aimed at end-game, because if it was it would force everyone to collect soo many items for recepies instead of simply converting to alterations and the like which are used widely, and alone the extra burdon of having to do that would be a nuisance.

At least, that's what i think.

I'm sorry, but this idea is terrible. Not only is it not crafting at all, it's an incredibly complicated and inferior alternative to just using the orbs that we already have. Why would anyone ever want to keep an eye out for a combination of two very specific items to get the items they want? It's not like finding the right base type is difficult, why not just use orbs on these items? If players are not using orbs, that's their own fault. Why would GGG want to go to the trouble of implementing this? Why not simply change quest reward rares so that they are identified to make it easier for players to get useful gear? Why not change the existing magic/rare item re-roll vendor recipe from five identical base type magics/rares to just three or two for most gear types? Why not improve the value of mods so that selling items to vendors results in more orbs for the player to use? Why not add rare items to vendors? I think these are far better and simpler ways towards resolving the problem your proposal attempts to address.

Which brings me to my next point...

This isn't even a solution to the actual problem of self-found gear. The issue is not in acquiring appropriate items or even the lack of opportunities to roll them with orbs, the issue is the unlikelihood that an item found or rolled will have the mods that you need it to have. This issue becomes more and more prevalent over the course of the game as the mod pool becomes more and more saturated with decreasingly useful lower level mods and heavy resist penalties begin kicking in. As far as I can see there are only two solutions for addressing this issue: One, make it so lower level mods are much less likely to roll on higher level items, a solution which GGG would undoubtedly hate as it would make perfect gear all the more obtainable... Or two, create a crafting system which ensures predictable results but is fairly costly at low levels (where it isn't really needed anyway) and can only create items that are inherently inferior to the potential of normal rare items (so as to prevent the system from eclipsing the established gambling system that is already better suited to quick fixes and end-game, perfect gear ambitions).

If GGG were to go the route of using vendor recipes as a means crafting gear, then honestly, I think they can do no better than just shamelessly copying Diablo II's crafted items system. Not the most elegant solution, but it would work.

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D623932883 wrote:

I'm sorry, but this idea is terrible. Not only is it not crafting at all, it's an incredibly complicated and inferior alternative to just using the orbs that we already have. Why would anyone ever want to keep an eye out for a combination of two very specific items to get the items they want?

Because they'd be rewarded with rerolls.

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D623932883 wrote:

It's not like finding the right base type is difficult, why not just use orbs on these items?

Because all orbs are best used on high maps and itemlevel 78 Vaal Regalia (and similar high-level crafting components), and thus players have a rather heavy incentive to delay orb uses as much as possible.

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D623932883 wrote:

If players are not using orbs, that's their own fault.

I say, if they are using their orbs, that's their own fault.

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D623932883 wrote:

Why not simply change quest reward rares so that they are identified to make it easier for players to get useful gear?

Because you'd have ES characters taking the Evasion chest because it has better rolls, then trading it off.

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D623932883 wrote:

Why not change the existing magic/rare item re-roll vendor recipe from five identical base type magics/rares to just three or two for most gear types?

Because it doesn't scale downwards; it's more of the same, where you're best off using Alchs on high itemlevel crafting components, multiple times, then trading them all away for more rerolls at the same base item type.

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D623932883 wrote:

Why not improve the value of mods so that selling items to vendors results in more orbs for the player to use?

Because trash is trash, and should be treated like trash.

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D623932883 wrote:

Why not add rare items to vendors?

Not sure on that one. Why not?

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D623932883 wrote:

This isn't even a solution to the actual problem of self-found gear. The issue is not in acquiring appropriate items or even the lack of opportunities to roll them with orbs, the issue is the unlikelihood that an item found or rolled will have the mods that you need it to have. This issue becomes more and more prevalent over the course of the game as the mod pool becomes more and more saturated with decreasingly useful lower level mods and heavy resist penalties begin kicking in. As far as I can see there are only two solutions for addressing this issue: One, make it so lower level mods are much less likely to roll on higher level items, a solution which GGG would undoubtedly hate as it would make perfect gear all the more obtainable... Or two, create a crafting system which ensures predictable results but is fairly costly at low levels (where it isn't really needed anyway) and can only create items that are inherently inferior to the potential of normal rare items (so as to prevent the system from eclipsing the established gambling system that is already better suited to quick fixes and end-game, perfect gear ambitions).

This entire paragraph reeks of end-game elitism. No, you have it precisely backwards, it's getting the barely function gear you need to progress your low-level character forward to at least low maps which is where such a system is really needed. What we don't need is even more methods for ultra-late-game players to further upgrade their already functional gear.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Because they'd be rewarded with rerolls.

If it could be as simple as six recipes for each gear type, I'd feel completely differently, but 345 different recipes plus new item base types just for rerolls is overkill.

Forgive me for skipping some things here. I didn't feel it was necessary to argue these points further, they aren't that important.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

This entire paragraph reeks of end-game elitism. No, you have it precisely backwards, it's getting the barely function gear you need to progress your low-level character forward to at least low maps which is where such a system is really needed. What we don't need is even more methods for ultra-late-game players to further upgrade their already functional gear.

I don't know where this perceived elitism is coming from. I am simply expressing my feelings, based on personal experience, of wherein the problem lies when it comes to gear progression. In short, adding RNG on top of RNG will not address the issue of bad gear progression throughout the game, options will. The addition of a traditional crafting system with some small amount of predictability is one such option.

Anyway, that's not what I was suggesting at all. Maybe it didn't come out right, because I am agreeing with what you are saying here. I think a system of crafting items should be for the purpose of getting usable gear primarily throughout Cruel and Merciless difficulties. I don't think it's entirely necessary for it to be an option in Normal, however, because there isn't much to worry about as far as resistances go, and the odds of getting acceptible mods on items are generally pretty decent. Ideally, I think it's better to have players getting accustomed to using low level orbs at that point if they need better gear. And I did make a point to mention that crafted gear should be worse than rare items, the idea being that they should not be a replacement for functional, ultra-late-game gear, that the gambling system should be the focus for gear improvement at that point.

Bump.

I think,it would be an awesome idea.But please not that complicated.It would make it even worse for new players to get into the game.

But anyway +1 for this idea, 'cause crafting right now, is too expensive to afford.

Anything has to be better than the current system, I mean it's not even crafting lmfao.. It's just randomly applying orbs and hoping you get lucky. Crafting is a skill, not a random chance.

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Peenk wrote:

Crafting is a skill, not a random chance.

Wow, that post is really awesome. Because crafting in PoE is exactly that, random...

Still +1 for this idea.

Hi

Orb recipes over gear recipes any day.

I mean seriously who wants to roll a shabby jerkin? You know my stance about SFL Scrotie and you know that the issue isn't finding gear as much as having the orbs to roll the gear often enough. My previous SFL posts have always mentioned this and suggested ideas towards a orb crafting system that would allow more specific mods to be rolled on your gear. With 4l dropping so easy now it is the orbs one armed gambling...oh I mean crafting system(sarcasm:sorry GGG) that needs a serious overhaul. It is a total kick in the face to have all this customization fall flat from the gambling/crafting system presently instilled in POE.

I am always for more recipes but I feel like I would never use any of these recipes except for crafting a glorious plate to chance to get a kaoms...

cheers