Question regarding Armor/evasion and Iron reflexes.

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Mark_GGG wrote:
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EpsiIon wrote:
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Completed 1 ChallengeIao wrote:
In the case of Iron Reflexes, the order of calculation goes accordingly: all effects to your accumulated Evasion Rating (Grace and your equipment, in this case) are applied, then the Total Evasion Rating is converted to Armor, and then all effects to Armor are applied to the sum.
This doesn't seem to be the case, I get substantially more effect from a 10% Evasion node, using iron reflexes, then I do from a 10% armor node. Also, the 30% evasion node is noticably more effective then leather and steel big node.

I believe the devs specifically nerfed this, how and the particulars escape me
That's not a nerf - the conversion has never worked liked that. That would be incredibly overpowered, as it would make the additive bonuses to evasion and additive bonuses to armour be multiplicative with each other.

Anytime the game converts one stat to another, the converted amount is affected by total modifiers to both.
All your base evasion is affected by your total modifiers to evasion and to armour, and you get the result as armour. All your base armour is affected as normal only by increases to armour.

If you have 100 base armour, 100 base evasion, 10% increased armour, 20% increased evasion, and 24% increased armour and evasion (from Leather and Steel), then:
From evasion: 100 x (1 + 0.10 + 0.20 + 0.24) = 100 x 1.54 = 154 armour
From armour: 100 x (1 + 0.10 + 0.24) = 100 x 1.34 = 134 armour
Total armour: 288

This is exactly the same as how all conversion in the game works, such as converting damage. Anytime some amount of a stat is converted, that base value is affected by the total of modifiers that affect either stat.

The only thing that's changed about this is that when originally implemented, Leather and Steel did something different. It used to provide two separate bonuses: 24% increased evasion, and 24% increased armour. Those were separate bonuses, and thus any evasion converted to armour by iron reflexes was affected by both, which was not the intent of the nodes. They are now one bonus providing a 24% increase to evasion and armour, and thus apply only once to each value.


Mark has been this tested recently? Kripparrian stated in 1 of his videos, that when you get Leather Steel only 1 bonus applies, not both.
And i asked him on stream, saying what you say and he answered that he had empirical prove
because he tested it, and its working as he said.
I guess Kripp is wrong, but i want some confirmation.
Since Grace gives an integer value I'm assuming it gets added to your evasion rating before the Evasion%s and the Armor%s are added to Evasion and before the conversion of evasion into armor. Same with Molten Armor for Armor.

But, here are what I'm confused about and hopefully the dev or some hardcore player can clarify. Someone will deliver!

-When is the % evasion from Dex added? Is it added additively with all the other passive evasion%s?

-When is Determination%

-What about Armor from Granite flasks? When does that play into the calculations?

-If I get the 4% Evasion per Frenzy Charge passive when in the order of operations is the 4% added into the armor calculations?

-While we are on the subject when is the % HP from Str added? Again, is it added additively with all the other % HP passives?
IGNs-
Gyeff // Greff // Gyaff
Last edited by geffreyy on December 21, 2012 4:57 AM
^Yes, integer armour/EV is treated the same no matter the source; the bonuses from Grace and granite flasks are included in your base total along with gear.

All percentage "increased" mods are additive. In this case that's everything except Determination's "x% more armour" which applies to the final armour value. All "x% increased maximum life" mods likewise sum, whether from the str bonus, tree or items.

RE your earlier post:
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geffreyy wrote:

1. Why is evasion being affected by Armor percentages? Evasion is different from armor isn't it? Or does the armor% only affect evasion if your armor has evasion on it? What about if your Armor only gives armor value and no evasion?

3. What about shields? Are shields considered a piece of armor and affected by armor%? Or are they modified only by the shield defences passive? What if your shield has evasion or energy shield and not armor?

It doesn't matter whether your armour/shield is a pure armour/EV or hybrid piece. Evasion is affected by increased armour because it's converted into armour :)

Defences on shields are treated just like those from any other piece of gear.


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Incanar wrote:

And it turns out that with Iron reflexes its better to use pure evasion or pure armor nodes with evasion armors.

Or, in other words, Leather and Steel nodes are bad for Iron reflexes keystone.

If everything works as intended then Leather and Steel and armour nodes do the same thing. Evasion nodes will only apply to evasion so you should avoid those unless you don't have armour from gear (or plan to use granite flasks).
Last edited by hubb on December 21, 2012 11:10 PM
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Completed 5 ChallengesDarion88 wrote:
Mark has been this tested recently? Kripparrian stated in 1 of his videos, that when you get Leather Steel only 1 bonus applies, not both.
And i asked him on stream, saying what you say and he answered that he had empirical prove
because he tested it, and its working as he said.
I guess Kripp is wrong, but i want some confirmation.
Yes, Leather and Steel has a single bonus, which applies only once to a given value - that's the same as what I posted, but put in a different way.
"I'm a strong, independent blue gem and I don't need no other gems to support me. -sassy finger wag-" - Stormquake
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Mark_GGG wrote:
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Completed 5 ChallengesDarion88 wrote:
Mark has been this tested recently? Kripparrian stated in 1 of his videos, that when you get Leather Steel only 1 bonus applies, not both.
And i asked him on stream, saying what you say and he answered that he had empirical prove
because he tested it, and its working as he said.
I guess Kripp is wrong, but i want some confirmation.
Yes, Leather and Steel has a single bonus, which applies only once to a given value - that's the same as what I posted, but put in a different way.

Then i dont understand, looking at your previous post:
If you have 100 base armour, 100 base evasion, 10% increased armour, 20% increased evasion, and 24% increased armour and evasion (from Leather and Steel), then:
From evasion: 100 x (1 + 0.10 + 0.20 + 0.24) = 100 x 1.54 = 154 armour
From armour: 100 x (1 + 0.10 + 0.24) = 100 x 1.34 = 134 armour
Total armour: 288



You are using the 24% from armour and evasion there, Krip said you only get 24% armour or 24% evasion not both. You say thats correct but your math is showing the opposite. I dont get it.
leave you the link at the exact moment he says that so you can see tell me if he is saying correct or not. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PyCTK5sYT3E#t=329s
Because if what krips says is correct, you have to remove 0.24 from 1 of your lines in the math.

Edit: i think i understand it, tell me if this is right
This is Ir formula:
Base armour * ( 1 +%increased armour ) + base evasion * ( 1 + %increased armour + %increased evasion )
So the Leather steel bonus doesnt applied to the increase armour in the 2d part of the equation, is that what krip and you mean here?
Last edited by Darion88 on December 24, 2012 1:59 AM
Kripp's wording at the end is wrong, but he's trying to say the right thing. I think. He states that converted evasion is increased by both evasion and armour increases, then goes on to say that this isn't true for leather and steel.

Previously leather and steel had a 24% (taking this example) increase to armour, and a separate 24% increase to evasion. Since both armour and evasion bonuses apply to converted evasion this meant that these separate bonuses applied and gave you a 48% bonus to converted evasion. Leather and steel now gives a single 24% increase to armour and evasion, which means that the bonus isn't applied twice.

*edit: Didn't properly read your edit, you have it right there.
Last edited by hubb on December 24, 2012 9:51 AM
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Completed 5 ChallengesDarion88 wrote:
You are using the 24% from armour and evasion there, Krip said you only get 24% armour or 24% evasion not both. You say thats correct but your math is showing the opposite.
I'm saying it's correct that a single bonus applies, because there is only one bonus. Leather and Steel only ever has one bonus to apply - there is never a way to apply 'both' because the word both must apply to two things. Leather and Steel has one bonus, which applies whenever increases to armour or to evasion are calculated.

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Completed 5 ChallengesDarion88 wrote:
Edit: i think i understand it, tell me if this is right
This is Ir formula:
Base armour * ( 1 +%increased armour ) + base evasion * ( 1 + %increased armour + %increased evasion )
So the Leather steel bonus doesnt applied to the increase armour in the 2d part of the equation, is that what krip and you mean here?
You're getting there. it's:
Base armour * ( 1 + all increases that apply to armour ) +
Base evasion (converted to armour) * ( 1 + all increases that apply to armour or evasion )
Note that "all increases that apply to armour or evasion" is not the same as "all increases that apply to armour" + all increases that apply to evasion", because some are in both groups.

Leather and Steel is a bonus that applies to armour, and it's a bonus that applies to armour or evasion, so it appears in each of the above sets of modifiers. It does not appear twice in the second set, because it's one increase. The game does not total all increases that would apply to armour and all increases that would apply to evasion, and then sum them, because then you're counting some of them twice (such as L&S, and the "increased defences from shield" nodes). It sums all bonuses that could apply to armour or to evasion, counting each one once, and applies those.

You can't split it out into armour-only increases and evasion-only increases, because Leather and Steel is neither. It's a single bonus that applies if armour or evasion is increased. Just like how an elemental damage increase applies to any of fire, cold or lightning damage, but is not doubled when using the cold to fire support gem.
"I'm a strong, independent blue gem and I don't need no other gems to support me. -sassy finger wag-" - Stormquake
Last edited by Mark_GGG on December 25, 2012 8:24 PM
Really thx mark, now i understand better.
when i was theorycrafting i was doing thigs wrong like this:

Armor 100
evasion 100
bonus 8% armor and 8% evasion(leather steel)

100*(1+8%)+100 (1+8%+8%)

So now if i understand well it should be 100*(1+8%)+100 (1+8%)

oh and now that you mentioned it, the "increased defences from shield" that would go in the "all increases that apply to armour" part right? or in both? i guess if it is in both it doesnt matter because shield are armor or evasion so they affect in the equation more in the Base armor or evasion, than in the increased bonus.

and thx again for answering in christmas(my bday), i ll take it like a Bday present =P
Last edited by Darion88 on December 26, 2012 2:42 PM
Just wondering if anyone can help me confirm this:
Does getting Iron Reflexes add 3 to evasion?

Without Iron Reflexes, I'm able to calculate the exact same amount for both evasion and armor.
However, when I have Iron Reflexes, I'm always off by a small amount.
So while trying to figure out what was I wrong, I decided to add 3 evasion to the base evasion, and even with differing % modifiers, I'm able to get the same amount that shows on my in-game character screen.

Is anyone else able to duplicate/confirm this?
I´m not sure if I got this right.

When using Iron reflexes the evasion rating gets increased by all modifiers that have evasion increase in it (like leather and steel), next it is added to the base armour and increased by all modifiers that increase armour but not evasion.

So for example: base armour 100, base evasion 100, 10% armour, 10% evasion, 10% armour and evasion

evasion 100 * ( 1 + 10% evasion + 10% armour and evasion ) = 120 armour

armour ( 100 * ( 1 + 10% armour and evasion ) = 110
( 110 + 120 ) * ( 1 + 10% armour ) = 253

Is that correct?
Last edited by theF1ash on February 5, 2013 12:06 AM

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