Iron Reflexes: double dip??

Between the thread being specifically about Iron Reflexes and this sentence in my post "As an example, this shield
actually gives my Marauder about 960 Armor for its 596 listed Evasion", I find nothing to be ambiguous as to whether or not I have IR. (Just stating my PoV)


As for Sony_Black's question,
I have 94 Dex between passives (there are several Dex nodes between Mara start and IR, of course) and current gear.
I support the movement for a permanent Instanced Loot league.

I can agree to not ruin the joy you get from loot filching if you agree to not ruin the joy I get from playing this game with out worrying about getting loot.
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Grandine wrote:
Between the thread being specifically about Iron Reflexes and this sentence in my post "As an example, this shield actually gives my Marauder about 960 Armor for its 596 listed Evasion", I find nothing to be ambiguous as to whether or not I have IR. (Just stating my PoV)

I'm a systems administrator. . .I don't take anything for granted. ;)
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Ladderjack wrote:
I'm a systems administrator. . .I don't take anything for granted. ;)


I can respect your stance.
I support the movement for a permanent Instanced Loot league.

I can agree to not ruin the joy you get from loot filching if you agree to not ruin the joy I get from playing this game with out worrying about getting loot.
So, at this point, we have. . .

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Mr_Smith wrote:
Iron Reflexes "converts" evasion to armor, that basically means its added on top of the armor you already have.


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Sony_Black wrote:
How much dex do you have - dex increases you evasion, so if you have IR your armor from eva items is=(eva*(1+armor boni+eva boni) AFAIK so yes you get both the eva and armor boni with iron reflexes (but GGG made sure they won't suddenly become multiplicative, the boni are still additive)


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Invalesco wrote:
As for individual conversions, I expect that pure evasion increase nodes would amplify evasion before the IR conversion.

I think the pure armour increase nodes would amplify the total armour post-IR conversion but I am not sure

If the principles I laid out in my original post hold true, we would see evasion amplified by Dexterity and passive skills, add the value to Armour from gear and then apply any Armour bonuses from passive skills.

Or rather, . .

((Evasion*(1+Dexterity bonuses+Evasion passive bonuses)+Armour)*(1+Armour passive bonuses))

Yes?? No??

edit: misspellings, bad phrasing and general brain misfirings
Last edited by Ladderjack on October 19, 2012 11:14 PM
I dont really know how IR works in comparison with the passives, but i do know that i had 2 different pairs of boots with the exact number of defences, (200 ev) (200 arm)

neither of the boots added Dex. and the only passive i had was leather and steal.

the evasion boots added FAR more defence, so it made me think that it got bonus from both the armor and the ev part of the passive.

if someone could explain this example it would maybe help.

all i know is that if u have IR , better to have dex/ev gear
The armour boots didn't receive evasion bonus before conversion, I guess.
Najda ✠ Laura_Palmer ✠ Tlama
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Ladderjack wrote:
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Grandine wrote:
Between the thread being specifically about Iron Reflexes and this sentence in my post "As an example, this shield actually gives my Marauder about 960 Armor for its 596 listed Evasion", I find nothing to be ambiguous as to whether or not I have IR. (Just stating my PoV)

I'm a systems administrator. . .I don't take anything for granted. ;)


"Hello.. my <such and such email program here> still doesn't work."

Me > Goes over to the machine and turns on the computer

"Oh, you have to do that?"

/sigh
I did something crazy and ... used the forum search :P ;)

found some dev responses in this topic: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/15332/page/1 (both on the first and second page - Disclaimer: the post are rather old, so i hope they are still valid)

Here is what Mark wrote:
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Mark_GGG wrote:
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Torin wrote:
I got another question similar to this one.

I am wondering how are % armor passives working in combination with Iron Reflexes:

Lets say I don't have any armor pieces on my character that give armor but only evasion and I took Iron Reflexes.
Will this % armor bonus then give anything?

I would hope it would give the same bonus as same % evasion passive but I wanted to check before spending passive points and wasting Respec points if it doesn't work. If none reply I will try it myself and report it here.
Yes, evasion converted to armour is affected by both evasion increases and armour increases.


And from the second page:
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Mark_GGG wrote:
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zriL wrote:
I think it's not logical at all. When the passive says convert evasion into armour, I except it to applied either before both armor and evasion passives or after both. However, currently that means that the conversion is applied after evasion passives and before armour passives, which doesn't make any sense to me.
No, it doesn't mean that. That would be turning the additive increase into multiplicative ones, which would be completely broken.

Technically, the conversion is applied to the base values, and then all increases applicable to both are applied.

It's logical to assume that if your evasion is converted to armour, and you increase your evasion, that increases the amount of armour you end up with.

It's also logical to assume that if you have some armour, and get passives to increase your amour, that you end up with more armour.

This system allows both of these very logical assumptions to hold. It's based on the way damage conversion is handled, which we changed to work this way because everyone assumed it worked like this and people were confused and disappointed to find it did not.
Proud 5th duelist in the Jul 1 2012 Ladder Race and in the Nov 3 2012 Solo Turbo Race :D
And even prouder 4th Templar in the Nov 10 Four-hour Party Hardcore Race :P
Current OB success:
top 20 Ranger in 105 Minute Turbo Solo (S4E9)
For posterity, this should be correct:

Evasion*(1+Dexterity bonuses+Evasion passive bonuses+Armour passive bonuses)+Armour*(1+Armour passive bonuses)
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Ladderjack wrote:
For posterity, this should be correct:

Evasion*(1+Dexterity bonuses+Evasion passive bonuses+Armour passive bonuses)+Armour*(1+Armour passive bonuses)
Correct

That was correct in intention, but now that this is apparently being quoted as gospel all over the place, it seems we must be completely pedantic and accurate.

That formula is incorrect, because it implies that evasion bonuses and armour bonuses are separate categories, and this has led some people to believe things can be in both and get applied twice.

Evasion converted to Armour is affected by increases to evasion or to armour.
Armour is increased by increases to armour.

For those who absolutely must have a formula:
"
base_evasion * (1 + [total all % increases that apply to armour or to evasion]) +
base_armour * ( [total all % increases that apply to armour])
I'm away for Christmas until early January. I won't be able to respond promptly to PMs, or be as active on the forums, in that time. Merry Christmas!
Last edited by Mark_GGG on March 1, 2013 2:19 AM

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