Devs: A lengthy discussion on combat mechanics, POE vs D3

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MaxTheLimit wrote:

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herflik wrote:

The point is that you ofc CAN or CANT make it but most of player base always pick the best easiest gameplay way so this way, with make the game utter boring and the customization of char goes straght forward to hell. Thats what actualy u can see almost each patch of this game, builds change but majority stick to known best builds.
You say they CAN i say that most people WILL and heres the problem.

So? Who cares that most people chose to play in the simplest way possible? Being original and creative is encouraged, but not required.

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herflik wrote:

You say that it might be the most effective way, it is, i tested those things before and there is no point of even discussing this topic.

That's mathematically impossible. Testing all possible combinations of skills and character configuration allowed in game has too many variables for you to have tried them all.

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herflik wrote:

The reason why the game is centered around one skill is having usualy only one 6 socket item on your character on end-game meaning you can boost only one skill to hellish power, where the rest are stuck with max 3 supports. You will never do as much with other skill since you dont have so many supports.

Yes, six socket items are powerful. You don't have to use just one skill with 5 support gems though. You are making assumptions AGAIN that your way is the only way to play. Just because you found boring one attack builds that work for you doesn't mean that alternate types of builds aren't as effective.

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Blacknsilver wrote:

Even if the GGG devs were interested in completely redesigning the entire gameplay of the game, it's kinda late for that.
(imo)

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MaxTheLimit wrote:

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cavemandiary2 wrote:

I suggest that skills are categorized into 3 groups:

- Basic skills. These skills have moderate impact, but are always spamable. Their ressource cost is low.

Example: deal damage with fireball

- Advanced skills. These skills have a high impact, and have a low cooldown of 3-10 seconds. Their ressource cost is moderate.

Example: Freeze a pack with coldsnap

- Ultimate skills. These skills have a very high impact, a long cooldown of 15-30 seconds. Their ressource cost is high.

Example: Clear the screen with Discharge

Uhh...isn't it already like this? There are spamming basic skills like fireball, then there are more powerful skills like flicker strike that have a small cool down to prevent spamming, then there are higher damage skills like traps that do a lot of damage but have longer cool downs and limited number of simultaneous traps. I can only imagine that once the skill system is filled out there will be an abundance of this sort of thing.

As another note, just because you CAN buff a single skill and spam it, doesn't mean you HAVE to or that it is the most effective way to create a character. Many chars depend on a plethora of different attacks for different situations.

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cavemandiary2 wrote:

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Ragnar119 wrote:

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cavemandiary2 wrote:

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First I must say, that I am for more dmg skills to be used with implementation of small cooldowns. But your proposal is bad because you are forcing all people to play that way (the way you like to play, and me also =)), and I learned that a lot of people don't like cold downs, because after all they are limiting you and forcing you to use more dmg skills.

The thing that I would like to see is a system that will give you option to please both sides (people that like CD and people that dont like CD). I did a suggestion long time ago (and saw similar one in suggestion forum) is to implementing special support gems that increase the damage of skill a lot (like 300%),but also give a cool down to skills. In that way, everyone can play the way he likes.

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MaxTheLimit wrote:

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cavemandiary2 wrote:

What Herflik is trying to convey here is that evidence from past games has shown us that the path of least resistance eventually becomes the standard metagame. Specifically, the most effective style of play becomes the norm, as long as that option is left uncontested - save for the few purists insisting on playing the game their way for fun, instead of the most effective.

It is going to be quite difficult to determine the 'best' build in this game strictly because of the complexity of how skills interact. Of course effective cookie cutter builds will dominate, because that's just how people tend to play arpg games. But at least there is a lot of opportunity to make unique builds.

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cavemandiary2 wrote:

As for the last paragraph, explain? Do you mean that he could use 2 skills with 4 gems? Give me a good example. It would make your antiargument more plausible. Fyi linkin that last gem makes a huge impact on it's dps. It can mean the difference between adding manaleech, extra projectiles, fastercast or concentrate effect. Would anyone link say a 6l armor to 2 skills to be a jack of all trades but master of none? Maybe, but not doing so would yield much more dps.

Which brings us to Herfliks arguement of the path of least resistance becoming the norm.

Well, like I said it's not all about dps. One example would be a build that uses dual swords, and relies on life steal. You could use dual strike, and cleave and the same supports, namely things like faster attacks, life gain on hit, life leech, melee physical damage, etc. Because such a build would focus on both single enemy attack with dual strike, and group attacks with cleave investing in just one would provide diminished returns. Yes you COULD just invest in cleave and make it SUPER powerful, but it would be essentially wasted on single target attacks. Dual strike would be tedious against multiple targets. When you rely on fast life stealing attack it would be okay to segregate.

You could then use the multiple slots in your other gear for creating effective support, like a movement skill like flicker strike. Add in a curse, and an aura or two. Maybe add a totem, or a range attack.

Again, it isn't always about DPS. Survivability is important too. Creating a balanced char that is balanced for different situations is important too. I mean you can level up heavy strike to HUGE numbers on DPS, but it is still a single enemy attack...Just an obvious example.

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Ragnar119 wrote:

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cavemandiary2 wrote:

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First I must say, that I am for more dmg skills to be used with implementation of small cooldowns. But your proposal is bad because you are forcing all people to play that way (the way you like to play, and me also =)), and I learned that a lot of people don't like cold downs, because after all they are limiting you and forcing you to use more dmg skills.

The thing that I would like to see is a system that will give you option to please both sides (people that like CD and people that dont like CD). I did a suggestion long time ago (and saw similar one in suggestion forum) is to implementing special support gems that increase the damage of skill a lot (like 300%),but also give a cool down to skills. In that way, everyone can play the way he likes.