Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

Holy Mother of God, the near 1k pages lootthread is still going and what do i see in the last comment - Karmic retribution?

ahhh, things are well :D

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Karmic retribution is nice and all, but going from telling SA telling PA "suck it up, find your own people" to PA telling SA "suck it up, find your own people" is not an improvement. Loot options are not justice, although perhaps they are revenge.

Nah, it´s not revenge at all. You guys can still create a party and entitle it like: This is a SA party.

Before, the PA didn´t have this option.

If the majority of players prefer play PA, it´s not revenge, it´s just an option.

It´s a win/win situation.

Create your own party and entitle it as "SA party". Simple as that. :)

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cyryc wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Karmic retribution is nice and all, but going from telling SA telling PA "suck it up, find your own people" to PA telling SA "suck it up, find your own people" is not an improvement. Loot options are not justice, although perhaps they are revenge.

Nah, it´s not revenge at all. You guys can still create a party and entitle it like: This is a SA party.

Before, the PA didn´t have this option.

If the majority of players prefer play PA, it´s not revenge, it´s just an option.

It´s a win/win situation.

Create your own party and entitle it as "SA party". Simple as that. :)

If the point of the game is to fight monsters and fight over loot then any options to make it easier is indeed a loose/loose situation.

No one likes FFA, no one ever has. But when its the only option it creates a very real world to play in. PA or Instanced loot removes that felling. And its basically gone now in POE>


Now we need modes for the "MAJORITY" of players who want instant respecs, better loot, weaker monsters etc.

Fact is people prefer the path of least resistance, doesn't mean they should be catered to.

Honestly PA is bad in POE. Even tho the 'majority' seem to have latched on it. Its made me not even want to play in public games anymore simple because there is no point. Its not like its divided equally. Screw it.

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cyryc wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Karmic retribution is nice and all, but going from telling SA telling PA "suck it up, find your own people" to PA telling SA "suck it up, find your own people" is not an improvement. Loot options are not justice, although perhaps they are revenge.

Nah, it´s not revenge at all. You guys can still create a party and entitle it like: This is a SA party.

Before, the PA didn´t have this option.

If the majority of players prefer play PA, it´s not revenge, it´s just an option.

It´s a win/win situation.

Create your own party and entitle it as "SA party". Simple as that. :)

Before: if you want to play with zero to low ninjas, very difficult to set up, and impossible to maintain if you keep allowing new people to join. For the most part, you had to abandon the idea of a truly public party and play exclusively with actual friends, which means your ability to multiplayer was only as good as your friends list.

After: if you want to play with the ability to ninja, zero to low parties that aren't running PA, and the few that do are likely more even more grabby than you are. For the most part, you have to abandon the idea of a truly public party and play exclusively with actual friends, which means your ability to multiplayer is only as good as your friends list.

All that's happened as a result of loot options is making the previously persecuted side happy, at the cost of persecuting the previously happy side. That might not be intent, but that's the practical result.

Also what Voodu said.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

After: if you want to play with the ability to ninja, zero to low parties that aren't running PA, and the few that do are likely more even more grabby than you are.

This comment is really insightful. What it says is that all the ninja players previously were relying on people who did not want it, and were not good at it, in order to take advantage of them. It's no wonder they opposed so strongly. They intuitively knew that they were having their unwilling victims taken away from them.

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Courageous wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

After: if you want to play with the ability to ninja, zero to low parties that aren't running PA, and the few that do are likely more even more grabby than you are.

This comment is really insightful. What it says is that all the ninja players previously were relying on people who did not want it, and were not good at it, in order to take advantage of them. It's no wonder they opposed so strongly. They intuitively knew that they were having their unwilling victims taken away from them.

No, it doesn't. The desire to not have the people you're partying with be too grabby, while simultaneously wanting the capability to ninja, does not instantly make one a hypocrite. This is because the desire to be non-zero does not mean a desire to be a truly large value; it may only mean one desires moderation between the two extremes.

More importantly, it is possible to embrace this moderation without being a hypocrite. You can be a "moderate ninja" without desiring an abuser-victim relationship; you can expect other players to return the favor, and have no problem with it. I imagine this is possible under SA as well, but that's not the point. The point is that moderation is now even less possible than before, and the current SA parties feel functionally almost identical to FFA parties, which isn't the balance I'm looking for.

That said, I'm sure some of those opposed the PA system were indeed such victimizing strawmen, which helps explain how the loot options movement succeeded. That's why one of the goals of my system was to match players to others with similar looting tendencies, to better enforce the "golden rule" concept and prevent such hypocrisy.

I don't understand why people are so incredibly envious of other party members getting loot due to what they (and others in the party) are actually doing?

I mean, how come this (other players are "stealing" my loot) almost never comes up as a complaint when the game assigns the loot to the other player automatically? Why is it so much better for someone else to be, for example, getting "all" the uniques in a map due to RNG, as opposed to getting them due to their own actions and (in)actions of their party members? Why is it so much more acceptable for the game itself to be "stealing" your loot?

Following this logic further, shouldn't you be pushing for a system of absolutely "fair" loot distribution where if one unique drops, every party member gets a copy?

Or is fairness not really the core of the complaint and it's about something else entirely?

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exit_zero wrote:

Or is fairness not really the core of the complaint and it's about something else entirely?

The same dead-weights that were previously trying to snipe loot instead of actually fighting monsters, and having click-races with party members... are now the same dead-weights, but without the click-race, because they automatically win.

Now don't get me wrong, not everyone who's big on PA feels they don't have to contribute to the action. But I think everyone who is PA has been in a situation, perhaps through the circumstances and flow of battle alone, where they haven't been able to contribute to a particular engagement, and arrive late to the action. And then when they don't get reward for it, they feel cheated, because "I do my share!" But no one does their share all the time, which is why sometimes you have to take point while some other party member has his thumb up his bum. The proper solution here is give-and-take, not relying on the game for random distribution.

A system that is appealing because it enables a reasonable level of laziness on the part of normal players, is a system that is actually a disaster because it enables an utterly unreasonable level of laziness on the part of exploiters. At least ninjas weren't allowed to be lazy.

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exit_zero wrote:

I don't understand why people are so incredibly envious of other party members getting loot due to what they (and others in the party) are actually doing?

I mean, how come this (other players are "stealing" my loot) almost never comes up as a complaint when the game assigns the loot to the other player automatically? Why is it so much better for someone else to be, for example, getting "all" the uniques in a map due to RNG, as opposed to getting them due to their own actions and (in)actions of their party members? Why is it so much more acceptable for the game itself to be "stealing" your loot?

lol. That totally flipped the perception of whats going on now.


Before you had a choice to grab what you want or need. The short loot timers where the start of ruining how to game was played. It RNGd a time, but atleast people still had a chance to fight for drops they wanted

Now, you simply have to deal with what the RNG allocation hands out and its very, very bad.

Last few times I played public games I got nothing... Seriously nothing at all while a few other people got the bulk of it.

Now, people battle the RNG for drops and the RNG for allocated loot.

Now you get 'ninja'd' by the RNG.

Now if something drops that you want you have to pretend you don't see it, and come back later when the player has left.. lol!


This game might as well go instanced loot like D3. Might as well, don't see the point of options and perm allocated loot is total unfair.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the point of complaining about an option

I suppose it's true that randomly handing out loot instead of equally dividing it is less than preferable, but at least that's not the only way you're forced to get loot in a group