Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.
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I personally like FFA loot. It does add another form of fun to the game.
One of the things I loved in Diablo and Diablo 2 was trying to beat everyone to the loot that the bosses/mobs dropped. IGN:
HowULikTehShox HowULikTehBleed |
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Ninjalooters need to understand that some players feel hurt, and feel like they have been done wrong when you loot the item that to them, felt like it should have been theirs. Carebears need to understand that ninjalooters don't enjoy a completely safe system.
Please, please, puhlease use a system that offers features to please both. Not one or the other, not neither, but both. One system that offers features to both, or two systems that the party leader can choose from. " It certaily doesn't combine the best of both worlds, as explained in my previous post. It sits somewhere near the middle, but more towards the ninja side. It doesn't really help people that don't like ninja looting. " I agree. From what I've seen, Chris @ GGG is a pro at ninja looting and he really enjoys it. Not sure about the rest of the team. I don't think that's a good thing for the game, to be honest, because it might lead to lack of appropriate action to create a system that pretty much everyone is happy with. I believe that is possible, as explained in my previous post, it just needs to combine the best of both worlds, whilst avoiding the very extremes that cause people to leave the game. A pitfall is a system that sits somewhere in the middle that nobody enjoys because it lacks the features that either camp loves. " Disagree. As mentioned in my previous post, individual loot reduces the feeling of competition over loot which is considered a bad thing by GGG and I agree. It causes a reduction in item fever and party communication about items. The current system doesn't really do anything for those who really don't like FFA loot. The addition of the short timers simply isn't good enough to them, and I am one of them. " Yep. " Nope. This is an extreme that needs to be avoided because it does not offer anything that the other camp (FFA lovers) enjoys. With the right system we can have competition over loot without feeling like we got robbed. " No. If I'm planning my next char to be a bow wielding ranger, but I am playing a melee marauder, I don't want my odds of finding a bow reduced. The best solution I've come up with that I like is one that does not allocate loot right off the bat. Everything drops on the floor. Then, whoever clicks it first starts a timer (a thin time bar below the item) that lasts 5 seconds during which the other players can click on the item too, to join the dice roll. If you win it, the item goes to your inventory. Optionally, the odds for winning the dice roll can be influenced by your actions over the last 10 minutes, to encourage certain things. To indicate which items you have cilcked on, a little red X is displayed next to the item if you didn't click the item yet but someone else did. A green V checkmark is displayed if you did click the item, so you know you are in the race for that one. This system feels like you are competing very strongly because other players (and you) are actively marking items they will take if you don't click them too. This happens for every non white (or non white and non blue) item, which only increases that feel. Yet, there is a dice roll that determines who wins the item, so it never feels like you got robbed or done wrong by another player. Ninjalooters would be happy because they still feel like they are competing over items. People who'd prefer their own private loot would be happy too because of the 5 second time window so they have all the time they need to click the items they want. I explained it in more detail in my very long previous post. Last edited by Roenie#7869 on Aug 13, 2012, 4:18:19 PM
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" I agree with a lot of your points but I disagree with you here. I don't think there can be a loot system that has both loot competition and also doesn't have people getting robbed. They are opposites from another. The only way to have both is if their are options to support both groups. Standard Forever
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" I agree that for people like us it doesn't add anything but frustration. There are other people who enjoy it though and for them it adds something that they like. I just don't think people like us should be forced to play in the system that they like but we don't. Standard Forever
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" Disagree, because I believe I have a solution to that. Chance is your friend. I'm going to repeat what I said before, because my post was probably so long that most people didn't get far enough to read this. I know it's long, sorry, it's the only way to do it: No initial, automatic drop allocation, because I want the player to see all the drops, compete for them, know that he is competing for them, and to work for them. The non-white item initially drops without a timer, just like white items do. White and blue items can be picked up immediately, higher rarity items cannot. Anyone can click the higher rarity item to indicate that they want it. The item is not picked up immediately when clicked on. Instead, the item is marked. In front of its name it gets a small circle (gold outline and black fill) with a green "V" checkmark inside it. The circle is no taller than the item name itself. If someone other than you clicked the item, the checkmark is a red "X" instead. The X indicates that in 5 seconds a dice roll will be performed to dertermine who gets the item. The dice roll can optionally be influenced by your previous actions. (More about that later.) Now you have 5 seconds to click the item too, to join in the dice roll before it ends, turning the "X" into a "V" checkmark. After the 5 second period, the item is automatically added to the winner's inventory. Of course we need a decent indicator of the 5 second period. (The "participation window".) More about this further below. Competition feel to it Having to click on every item that you want to have, and the items originally not belonging to anyone, adds to the feeling of competition for that item. Especially if that item was first clicked by someone else, and that fact is visible to you on the actual item as a red X. Meaning you have to get over there and click it too, to participate in the dice roll. Cutthroats will like the competitive feel of this. Because I don't want everyone to click every item right now, there is a 5 second time window to do so. Carebears will like that idea. *And they won't feel robbed because chance ultimately determines who wins every roll, not the other players. Influencing the dice roll, enhancing competition and teamplay simultaneously I won't beat around the bush: this is the most difficult part to implement, but it's very powerful. Because we have a dice roll, we can influence its outcome based on player action. That could be anything you want to encourage or discourage. I would suggest using a set of criteria that cleverly and relatively precisely estimate how much a player was contributing to the progression of the party over the last 10 minutes. Divide by 10 to get a figure per minute. Compare that figure to the average figure for the entire party. Use the difference to determine a +% bonus to the chances of winning the dice roll. The "bonus" can also be negative. While this may seem like a very carebearish thing to do... let's display the number on the UI when in a party, or on the party screen. Suddenly you have people competing with each other to contribute the most to the party's overall progression. (Note: when your odds of winning increase, the other players odds naturally go down, because the total win chance of all partymembers combined is always 100%.) Participation window timer Of course we need a decent indicator of the 5 second time period that I mentioned easlier, and that I called the "participation window". We need a good indicator of this because if an item is on its last second of its participation window, you don't want to walk over to it if you are 2 seconds away. The player needs to be aware how much time is remaining. The way that timers are displayed with the current loot system could be used for this, with a few modifications; As mentioned, -The timers clutter up the UI a bit. -The timers are hard to read because they are numbers rather than a visual clue. -The timers are hard to read because they are numbers that are changing in realtime. Therefore: -Let's use a visual indicator instead of a numerical one, because they are quicker to judge. That is why monsters in some games have health bars hovering above them, not numbers alone. -Let's make them a bit smaller (less UI clutter). I suggest adding a very thin "time bar" below the item name, comprised of 5 horizontal sections, one for each second. It should of course not be green or red in colour, because it comes natural to players to interpret those colours as health bars (when shaped like a bar). I suggest making use of the colour gold. This solution takes up less UI space than a number timer, and it's easier to quickly interpret. A bar is less accurate, which can be a good thing. When just one bar section remains you don't know if that's a full second, half a second, or one fifth of a second. But you can try to click the item anyway, knowing full well that you may not get there in time. If you don't get it, your response would be something along the lines of: "Noooo, I really wanted that rare ring." (Which translates to: I really want to find another one.) If you did get to the item on time, your response would be something like: "Yes! Woohoo, just in time!". I like both those responses, but I like the one where you didn't get to the item in time better than the reaction you'd get from not getting to it while you were shown exactly how many 10ths of a second remained. In that case it would feel like your own stupid fault if you still clicked the item and didn't get there in time. Last edited by Roenie#7869 on Aug 13, 2012, 4:45:08 PM
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iamstryker, would the system I propose still make you feel like you were robbed?
(When you answer this question, please ignore the part about Influencing the dice roll) Last edited by Roenie#7869 on Aug 13, 2012, 4:40:14 PM
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" If you ever read back previous post, please note that I ask for a short description in a sentence or two. |
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I decided not to do that because if I summarized it even to the best of my ability, no one would really understand the system because it's a new thing. It would be dismissed due to preconceived notions of all sorts. Anyone who doesn't take the time to read it, probably wouldn't be able to make a valuable contribution anyway.
Edit: if you need a short description, just call it Roenie's system and link to it. I guess you could call it: Somewhat limited time to click to mark item on ground to indicate participation in dice roll, optionally influenced by previous player action. I hope that helps, but I'd still like you to link to the details as well, thanks. ;-) Edit: done editing. Edit: Honestly. Done now. :) Last edited by Roenie#7869 on Aug 13, 2012, 5:08:10 PM
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" This isn't about the drop rates, but an increased chance during the allocation. What if there is a Ranger/Shadow in your party that could use that bow right now? If the Ranger finds an amazing 2h mace, is he supposed to keep it for a future char too? Progression shouldn't be hindered by teaming up with random people. " There would be more fairness, but it would slow down the action. Are people supposed to run to the item and roll the dice every time something drops? That's exactly one of the problems I have with the current system. |
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If i was GGG, i would enable two loot systems, to be chosen by the party creator.
With no one system being perfect, and so many opinions it seems that's the only way to go. The most gentle of those options should not be "no one but me can touch or even see my loot" because if that was an option almost everyone would choose it, because they will choose anything that makes sure they will never ever lose a single item to another player. Even if it makes the game more boring. It's that risk aversion thing that humans have. Last edited by Roenie#7869 on Aug 13, 2012, 6:19:47 PM
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