Hitscan archers are plain unfair

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

Point being, here's fairly solid proof that archers have increased chance to hit. Spells, of course, will hit no matter what *but* you can actively avoid them with Whirling Blades and the like. Arrows, MUCH harder to avoid, and yet granted increased accuracy without any sort of damage penalty. I'm not sure if it's unfair, but it can be pretty off-putting. I think, however, this is stretching into the broader argument of melee vs. ranged, and we have plenty of threads about that. :)

Do moderators ever post anything useful in this forum?

I don't care about their ACCURACY. I care about RANGED mobs having PHYSICALLY UNDODGABLE PROJECTILES, and NOT BEING BALANCED FOR THIS. I can understand that they 1. want archers to use physical damage calculations and 2. want archers to have the same hit chance as casters, but I'm not talking about either of those. I'm not talking about the Evasion stat. I'm talking about MOVING OUT OF THE LINE OF FIRE. It's impossible, because they hit instantly, hit accurately, and automatically correct the angle to hit you.

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0nin wrote:

Do moderators ever post anything useful in this forum?

I don't care about their ACCURACY. I care about RANGED mobs having PHYSICALLY UNDODGABLE PROJECTILES, and NOT BEING BALANCED FOR THIS. I can understand that they 1. want archers to use physical damage calculations and 2. want archers to have the same hit chance as casters, but I'm not talking about either of those. I'm not talking about the Evasion stat. I'm talking about MOVING OUT OF THE LINE OF FIRE. It's impossible, because they hit instantly, hit accurately, and automatically correct the angle to hit you.

You can move out of line of fire. Get behind some wall or tree or something and they will be unable to hit you. Some spells like firestorm or coldsnap will be able to hit you in that place while arrows won't.
Also you actually care about accuracy and evasion, you just don't admit it.

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Dreamify wrote:

Plenty of options that you don't have access to unless they drop.

I'm sure if you ask in chat, there is a fellow tester who will give you one of those worthless duplicate quest reward skills he has taking up inventory space. Those gems aren't rare at all.

Even a brand-new, non-twinked character can deal with archers. People do it all the time in ladder rushes and regular play. They're not difficult if you use some strategy.

I really don't see what all the fuss is about. You can't manually dodge most melee attacks either unless you're already moving. You can't even dodge many of the spells in the game unless you're already moving. That means, basically, that you're not going to manually dodge much of anything unless you're actively running from it, which you can do with arrows, as well. Just use the terrain to your advantage. There are very few open areas in PoE that don't have a bunch of things you can hide behind.

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0nin wrote:

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

Point being, here's fairly solid proof that archers have increased chance to hit. Spells, of course, will hit no matter what *but* you can actively avoid them with Whirling Blades and the like. Arrows, MUCH harder to avoid, and yet granted increased accuracy without any sort of damage penalty. I'm not sure if it's unfair, but it can be pretty off-putting. I think, however, this is stretching into the broader argument of melee vs. ranged, and we have plenty of threads about that. :)

Do moderators ever post anything useful in this forum?

I don't care about their ACCURACY. I care about RANGED mobs having PHYSICALLY UNDODGABLE PROJECTILES, and NOT BEING BALANCED FOR THIS. I can understand that they 1. want archers to use physical damage calculations and 2. want archers to have the same hit chance as casters, but I'm not talking about either of those. I'm not talking about the Evasion stat. I'm talking about MOVING OUT OF THE LINE OF FIRE. It's impossible, because they hit instantly, hit accurately, and automatically correct the angle to hit you.

Wow, okay. Sorry.

Please calm down. I must have misread your post and felt that my input was relevant. Clearly not. Again, sorry.

And yes, the mods do post useful things on this forum. Maybe not me, but certainly the others.

Hope you get the answer you're looking for -- might want to dial back the hostility and attitude a tad, though. Good luck.

Im pretty sure they will be proper projectiles at some point. Just they are not at the moment because of some random tech thing the programmers need to make or something.

Thats the answer I got when I asked a few times a while ago.

There is this thing called "melee", that some here don't seem to grasp what is.

As a melee you are:
Literally in the faces of your opponent
Encumbered by the required amount of armor to even have a chance of surviving.
Affected by things such as stun to a much greater degree than ranged.

There is no such thing as putting up frost walls, or using terrain to avoid damage.
There is currently nothing that can keep out of harms way of an archer NPC.

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evasion, dodge, block, armor, energy shield, health, resistances

This should not be posted by a forum moderator, IMO.
You have at best access to two of the main def stats.
Block is for defensive melee and some casters.
Health is a given, but you can't realistically stack this without gimping yourself far too much, health has to be in line with your ability to regain it as well.
Resistances, well, I as a rule run with 75% allress on my chars (50+ on some ranged), this is great against casters, but against archers it's next to useless.
Elemental Archers still have their base damage, and you mostly find the lightning type, who are extra lethal in groups because of Shock

The OP is right even though he needs to calm down...

It's nice to see Russel acknowleding that :)

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Toltie wrote:

There is this thing called "melee", that some here don't seem to grasp what is.
...

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evasion, dodge, block, armor, energy shield, health, resistances

This should not be posted by a forum moderator, IMO.
You have at best access to two of the main def stats.

I know you only get 1 or 2 primary defenses. I never said that every character should have massive amounts of everything in that list. I was simply saying that all of those defenses are effective against archers (just like any other enemy), and it should be common sense that each character will have some of those defenses. I wasn't saying to go get all of them on your character so you can deal with a few archers.

I also listed other things that can be implemented in your strategy. Planning your attack to take on a few archers at a time and utilizing movement skills can help melee characters quite a bit. The game doesn't force you to go face-to-face with ten archers at a time. Be selective, draw them out, and pick them off while staying out of sight/range of the others. Even melee characters can use things like Frost Wall to great effect: cast it between archers so you can deal with them 1 or 2 at a time. Summon some skeletons right in their midst to distract them while you kill them off. Face-smashing hordes of enemies may sound fun, but it's not always the best strategy. There are tools at your disposal; it's not the game's fault if players fail to take advantage of them.

There are plenty of effective ways to deal with archers. People have been doing it for months and months of testing. It's not like they recently got a massive damage bonus that completely alters their gameplay. Yes, many of them will use skills now, but the overall methods of dealing with them are the same.

ME MAKE MELEE CHARACTER ME FIGHT AS MELEE ME ONLY USE ME SUPER SWORD OF DESTRUCTION ONLY WEENOS USE SILLY SHIELDS AND STRATEGY THE BEST STRATEGY IS RUSH ZERGING NO STRATEGY AND I EXPECT TO WIN IT IS MY RIGHT TO WIN I DIE I RAGEQUIT AND I RAGE ON FORUM COZ OF OP ARCHERS EZ EZ


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On a more serious note though, I see alot of melee characters zerging and dying. There seems to be alot of frustration amongst players that they get fixated on the melee attack mindset that they become infexible towards other solutions. There is no harm in utilizing hit-and-run, divide-and-conquer, or go temporarily ranged with bow or spells in appropriate situations. If you hate archers now, wait till you fight those multiple projectile chaos damage Vaal Constructs with a Boss. In merciless. Does it take losing enough 15% experience to knock that into your head?

No actually the Vaal Constructs are easy in comparison, because they have so tiny health pools, not even an ES aura boss make them much harder.
Not to mention even the MLP ones can still be avoided fairly well because of no instant projectiles.

Fighting archers isn't impossible, it's for the most part just fine and their damage potential reflects the difficulty I'd expect from PoE.
However just like with Hell/Inferno bosses in The Other Game that get impossible affixes, you can encounter archers in situations where their instant projectiles and high as hell damage output gets you killed.

Also, if you're suggesting body-pulling one by one mob is a FUN way to play this game, then we just have to very different idea of what's fun.
It's not that I don't do it, I do it to for example break up bosses than have gathered together in a display of ultimate mayhem (+Phys dmg aura and +ES aura ftw :p )
Normal mobs however, well, there's a reason we have stuff like Sweep, isn't there? Can't be just for the monkeys -.-'

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On a more serious note though, I see alot of melee characters zerging and dying. There seems to be alot of frustration amongst players that they get fixated on the melee attack mindset that they become infexible towards other solutions. There is no harm in utilizing hit-and-run, divide-and-conquer, or go temporarily ranged with bow or spells in appropriate situations.

If they mean for melee to be hybrids in that fashion, they'll have to make it easier to use hybrid builds.
I know we get weapon swap, but that's hardly enough, a character without any passives in bowmanship or mana usage will not do well with other types of abilities than physical melee.
I don't have the mana or mana regen to fight monsters with spells effectively.
I have other characters for that.

We have a good melee "hit and run" tactic, with Phase Run or Flicker, border-pulling mobs is neither realistic nor fun.
"Hey guys there's this guy over there we've been told to kill on sight, see him?"
"No man, you must be trippin' dude, shouldn't have smoked that spiderweb."
"Whatever dudes I'm going over there to check it out, even though we were told to stay in the group, like intelligent people do unless they have to advance a shitty movie plot, but we're not in a movie."
"Fine whatever bro, we'll just hang here... MY GOD he just got ripped apart by a man with an axe!"
"Dude you've been smoking his shit too? There's nothing there."
"I know what I saw damnit, gonna check if he's okay."

^No, just no.

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Russell wrote:

Im pretty sure they will be proper projectiles at some point. Just they are not at the moment because of some random tech thing the programmers need to make or something.

Thats the answer I got when I asked a few times a while ago.

Thanks for the reply.

Would you mind breathing down someone's neck to make that change come sooner? <.<