Everyone seems to say templar start is better then the witch in every way

What is there not to love? Low health, low resists, no armour around. It is a dream starting location. :P

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LostForm wrote:

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azraelb wrote:

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magicrectangle wrote:

On the spell damage side, witch is straight up inferior to shadow, and not really any better than templar (except with EK as mentioned, but shadow is still better for that than witch is).

No it isnt because you dont get any mana regen as shadow and less spell dmg. The start as a witch is much better and faster (clarity more early, 40% mana regen...). You mostly take shadows nodes anyway later on with most EK builds...

The only reason to take shadow over witch is in HC mode because you have access to a lot of life much more early as the witch. EK-witch is pretty dangerous at first.

The +24% damage to projectiles, the +spell damage, and the availability of so much faster casting starting as shadow imo is way stronger for EK than mana regen starting out. Using EK from level 4 on, you are going to want faster casting asap, and the 3 projectile nodes are like the best 3 points you can spend on the tree for EK dps.

If i were starting a EK build, i'd start shadow and go +spell power x 2 -> +faster casting x3 -> mental acuity -> +life -> accleration -> projectile damage, then head over to 10% faster casting cluster between witch and shadow and get the 4 node +life cluster with notable.

Also, the 12% faster attacks from acceleration work nicely if you want to use whirling blades and a casting dagger for mobility early.

First I thought this too. So I started as Shadow and also went spell power -> faster casting -> life nodes -> projectile dmg -> 10% castspeed ring -> more life.
But I had huge mana problems. Couldnt use the support gem before merveil, went to act 2 and at the end of act 2 I still couldnt use a single support, drink mana potions all the time and especially in groups I ran out of mana and flasks all the time.

So I deleted the shadow and started a witch and everything went so much more smooth (but it is pretty risky at first, because you'll get your first life node right before merveil at lvl 14). (took spelldmg -> mana regen -> castspeed -> more spell dmg -> rush to the 10% castspeed ring, but took the life nodes and not the castspeed -> after life rush to EB -> more life.

=> the start as shadow is more easy at first because of much more defense, but has a big mana disadvantage wich you will notice when getting your first support (added lightning dmg).
Witch is much faster (while shadow only has 19% spell dmg and 9% castspeed at lvl 10 we already have 33% spell dmg and 9% castspeed and 40% mana regen as witch (and maybe even clarity if we rushed really fast)
You cannot win a race with an EK shadow vs. an EK witch (never - except the witch dies or you are lucky and find some OP gear^^).

An EK Shadow might beat an EK Witch when it is all said and done, but a Witch is going to clean house with Fire, Cold, or Lightning. I even tried to make a Power Siphon Shadow and so far I ended up doing it as a Witch since the numbers were so far better. The Shadow does need to be reworked though, and I don't think it is a bad build. It's just the Witch clearly out does it.

I'm a Witch so my class starting point can bridge together the Templar and Shadow nodes I want to take.

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azraelb wrote:

First I thought this too. So I started as Shadow and also went spell power -> faster casting -> life nodes -> projectile dmg -> 10% castspeed ring -> more life.
But I had huge mana problems. Couldnt use the support gem before merveil, went to act 2 and at the end of act 2 I still couldnt use a single support, drink mana potions all the time and especially in groups I ran out of mana and flasks all the time.

So I deleted the shadow and started a witch and everything went so much more smooth (but it is pretty risky at first, because you'll get your first life node right before merveil at lvl 14). (took spelldmg -> mana regen -> castspeed -> more spell dmg -> rush to the 10% castspeed ring, but took the life nodes and not the castspeed -> after life rush to EB -> more life.

=> the start as shadow is more easy at first because of much more defense, but has a big mana disadvantage wich you will notice when getting your first support (added lightning dmg).
Witch is much faster (while shadow only has 19% spell dmg and 9% castspeed at lvl 10 we already have 33% spell dmg and 9% castspeed and 40% mana regen as witch (and maybe even clarity if we rushed really fast)
You cannot win a race with an EK shadow vs. an EK witch (never - except the witch dies or you are lucky and find some OP gear^^).

with 10 points into shadow you have +27% increased dmg (19 spell, 8projectile), 9cast speed, +8% life, +20 baselife and a reliable movement skill with whirling blades +12% increased attack speed. And the next two levels will give you 16% increased damage, where witch runs dry at 10.

While you are not running out of mana killing things as witch, I have run by 3 zones you need to stop and kill things in xD

mana is a bit tricky, but grab a pua amaulet, and you get 30% mana regen.

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Without_Pause wrote:

An EK Shadow might beat an EK Witch when it is all said and done, but a Witch is going to clean house with Fire, Cold, or Lightning.

Um, what? Even if they're doing an elemental witch, most people don't follow the "walker" line out of witch, because it sucks. Templar is pretty clearly the best choice for an elemental caster.

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LostForm wrote:

mana is a bit tricky, but grab a pua amaulet, and you get 30% mana regen.

Or just chain-pot until you get one of the three main solutions to mana (leech, blood magic, or eldritch battery).

guys...

witch starting area is fine. It's best for CI and it's best for spells. Period.

You want life and things like elemental weapon damage go templar.

Witch can reach into templar and shadow area, and so has easiest access to most relevant points.

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Crackmonster wrote:

guys...

witch starting area is fine. It's best for CI and it's best for spells. Period.

Shadow and templar can easily make their way around to each other also. What matters isn't what is in close proximity, what matters is what points you are forced to take in order to get out of the starting area. IE what is at the "root" of the tree.

The root of witch is strictly worse than the root of shadow or templar. Escaping the witch tree is pretty irritating, actually. Your options are:

1) Mana + ES nodes. The ES nodes will be nice if you're going CI (although you'll get them anyway passing by as a CI templar or shadow), but the mana nodes will mostly be a waste once you're using one of the main three mana solutions.

2) Spell damage + cast speed + int + spell damage. This route out of the tree is long, and includes some mediocre 5% spell nodes. Still, probably the best route if you're not going CI.

3) Spell damage + cast speed + int + element. Again, this route is long, and includes a bunch of mediocre nodes (6% single element).

4) Escaping witch via travel nodes. This takes more travel nodes to get somewhere useful than escaping templar or shadow via travel nodes does.


That's for long term builds. For race builds don't even get me started. Can you say health, anyone?


Ask yourself this: How many witch builds travel to the root of templar or shadow?

Now ask yourself this: How many templar or shadow builds travel to the root of witch?

I think Templars and Shadows waste points getting to each other generally speaking. It depends on what the builds are trying to do. Since going CI is more difficult for a Templar, it tends to be better for them to go towards Marauder. Shadows to me have easy access to CI, so they can get some of the Witch they need and get stuff like Iron Reflexes and maybe head to Duelist area. Again, it depends on the build. For a pure elemental caster, nothing beats a Witch.

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Without_Pause wrote:

Again, it depends on the build. For a pure elemental caster, nothing beats a Witch.

Except that for a pure elemental caster, a templar beats a witch.