Having now experienced Last Epoch's trade system, I think PoE does it right, actually.

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cursorTarget wrote:

1. To sell the item for the maximum possible price. You set item, someone offers 1 chaos, then fake offer 2c, someone offers 3c, fake offer 4c, somone offers 5c, fake offer 6c, item sold to the fake buyer and transfered to the owner. Owner PMs to the guy who offered 5c. PROFIT! This way is old as world. In most civilized countries you will be jailed for that, but not in videogames.

2. It completely ruins the idea of fair AH where competitors have ability to compete for the item offering the better price. It completely nullifies their efforts because because at the very end of the period bot can buyout the item in the millisecond without giving a chance to continue the competition. D3 is a good example.

3. Yes, we already have price fixers. But with AH they won't go away as some users assume (just because of instant buyouts). AH doesn't solve anything but brings more issues to the game. That's problem.

1. If you list an item without a buyout, it's going to rot there forever unless it's an extremely special (50D+?) piece, because no one is even going to look at items without an instant buyout in any lower price range.

2. Right now, people use trade bots and price watchers to buy underpriced items within seconds of them being posted on PoE trade. I fail to see how your example is any different, and again, you ignore the basic feature of an instant buyout.

3. Oh, they won't go away, but it's not like it would be any major change in that regard. What it does solve is that it will make trading currency, especially lower tier ones, a lot less annoying, increasing the player happiness with the game. That's what it's so wanted for. Just the imagination of being able to get the 1.5k fusings I need to 6L an item by just vacuum-cleaning an AH within a couple of minutes, rather than spending half an hour pming 70 people brings a smile to my face.

1. It won't if it's not AH but the marketplace. By the rules of AH item must be returned to his owner after period. From 1 hour to several days in average.

2. Yes, but most of the underpriced items are sold by the unexperienced players (unless it's price fixers). It's still not possible to buy those items instantly.

3. For this purpose you don't need AH but just straight-forward shop or AI vendor. Or probably marketplace with the list of currency, maps, fossils, essences, etc.

AH is good for decent items like Mageblood when you want to sell the item for the maximum possible price. As IRL it's very abusive way to trade.

PS Watch this YT vid Diablo 3 - Best of Auction House

All people want is an ability to see an item, see buyout price and boom done. Currently it's all kinds of stupid to buy anything thru trade.

D3 AH and PoE trade are two sides of the same coin.

With game balanced for trading/AH, the best way to play the game is not to play the game but play the trading/AH simulator.

Blizzard's solution to AH fiasco was to remove AH and balance the game for self-found loot.

AH and PoE-trade camps fighting out each other is like a fake wrestling match ignoring the elephant in the room.

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ShamelessWhiteknight wrote:

Imagine going to a supermarket and trying to buy an apple, only for the clerk to ignore you until you give up and leave. Or worse, they might try to switch the apple for a rotten one when you're not looking.

i feel like you wouldnt go back to that supermarket again.

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ShamelessWhiteknight wrote:

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cursorTarget wrote:

It's VERY abusive way to trade because botters will be very happy to exploit every single aspect of this system.

Why doesn't eBay need to implement tedium to combat bots then?

ebay is not a self contained world. if everything that could be bought or sold in the world was for sale through ebay and had to be bought or sold through ebay then the level of manipulation that would happen, the amount of bots that would assault the world economy buying and selling commodities through that website would be awful.

the worst excesses of people buying and reselling things for profit are happening far away from ebay and are not happening at a level of people buying basic things over the counter every day the same way bots would be swipping the apples off the shelves of poes economy while people are trying to buy food to eat. they are happening though and i dunno if youve look around the world economy lately but its completely fucked.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

ebay is not a self contained world. if everything that could be bought or sold in the world was for sale through ebay and had to be bought or sold through ebay then the level of manipulation that would happen, the amount of bots that would assault the world economy buying and selling commodities through that website would be awful.

the worst excesses of people buying and reselling things for profit are happening far away from ebay and are not happening at a level of people buying basic things over the counter every day the same way bots would be swipping the apples off the shelves of poes economy while people are trying to buy food to eat. they are happening though and i dunno if youve look around the world economy lately but its completely fucked.

Sure, but how would eBay handle a situation like this? Let's say that they wanted to slow down the bots by having everyone fill out dreadful paperwork for every single apple they want to buy. While this might only be a slight inconvenience bots, it hell for real customers.

I know my supermarket doesn't have us do paperwork when apples are on sale. They solve the hoarding problem with simple rules, like only letting each customer buy 10 apples per household.

Making rules to solve problems vs inconvenience for all is like having speed limits on the road. It keeps things safe without having to add inconveniences like potholes or sharp turns.

just popping in to reiterate my opinion that POE currently has the 2nd best online game trade system I've ever used.

1. Ultima Online's player vendors (before they made global search) where you had to actually adventure around in the world and see what other people had for sale, or conduct actual live auctions at players houses. Still one of the all time greatest most "immerse yourself in a world" games ever made.

2. POE

3. D2

4. All the terrible Auction house systems in MMO's that literally foster automation, bot sniping, and delete any and all interaction in the name of apeasing content locust "gamers" who just want their fucking item and don't have time to be a part of an interaction in an online game.

POE couldn't work with UO's vendors because it has no open world. So POE has IMO the best trade system it could have short of having more interactive elements like live player auctions where you go to a place and interact. I realize that most ARPG fans aren't after immersion to this degree, so its whatever.

(note leaving Last Epoch out of this because I haven't used their trade system yet, only the SSF guild)

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KZA wrote:

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trixxar wrote:

How about this, you can opt in to a system where you have to use current trade if its so fun, and others get an option for instant trade?

Wouldn't work, unfortunately, because the instant trade is a direct power advantage, and to quote Sid Meier, "Players will optimize the fun out of a game."

I think it's imperative to add to that quote, considering Sid M also supplemented it with, "where no fun is to be had, and thus fabricated"...

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cursorTarget wrote:

1. It won't if it's not AH but the marketplace. By the rules of AH item must be returned to his owner after period. From 1 hour to several days in average.

2. Yes, but most of the underpriced items are sold by the unexperienced players (unless it's price fixers). It's still not possible to buy those items instantly.

3. For this purpose you don't need AH but just straight-forward shop or AI vendor. Or probably marketplace with the list of currency, maps, fossils, essences, etc.

AH is good for decent items like Mageblood when you want to sell the item for the maximum possible price. As IRL it's very abusive way to trade.

PS Watch this YT vid Diablo 3 - Best of Auction House

1-The issue the guy was pointing is that in a normal AH not placing a buyout tends to lose you potentioal customers by itself. Esp when it comes to commodities like orbs, people tend to already have a price range they are willing to pay, they just buyout an offer on the range they are aiming towards and get it asap

2-You dont seem to understand buyout, its a very basic feature of any AH. Bid wars are only a thing when it comes to very pricy stuff that circunstance makes it hard to clearly set the monetary value. On poe that would be great off-meta gear that dont have much equivalents available on the market. The vast majority of the times, people have a rather clear picture of how much something is worth and even if you try to not use the buyout option, youll still end with a very similar price to the market price

3-GGG dont want to directly intervene with the market to that extend, but yeah, i reckon a large amount of the players would gladly get their magebloods and make orb exchanges from kirac is the option was available

Also, the comparison with D3 is completely wrong. D3 AH failed because they implemented a RMAH, THAT changed EVERYTHING. Good stuff were either sold for dollars or sold for ridiculous amounts of gold, it created an impassable gap between the average player and the p2w players. Would the gold AH work if no RMAH was there? Impossible to say because the exact same patch that killed the RMAH also killed the gold AH


Also the eBay references are super weird. eBay have issues because actual, physical goods are being traded. People can list stuff they dont have or list stuff they have but have no intention to deliver on eBay and that cause problems, but an AH on poe would have no such issues because no physical goods are being traded, GGG already have absolute control over who have wich item, theres no room for "failed delivery" or "fake offers" shenanigans. A more fair comparison would be banks administrating money: You cant make transactions with money you dont have, you cant try to aquire property with money you dont own and when you accept a transaction, the money you offered will be taken away from you no matter what because the bank have full control over it(you CAN force-cancel the transaction, but it carries serious risks that will get you blacklisted by the other party at best, will get cops involved at worst), more similar how GGG have absolute control over items than eBay that have only marginal control over the goods being offered

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KZA wrote:

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trixxar wrote:

How about this, you can opt in to a system where you have to use current trade if its so fun, and others get an option for instant trade?

Wouldn't work, unfortunately, because the instant trade is a direct power advantage, and to quote Sid Meier, "Players will optimize the fun out of a game."

Ahh the fine aroma of supreme arrogance.

Ignore the players, ignore the feedback, ignore the 500 pages on the trade manifesto, because players dont know anything. They dont know even what they want or what they find fun.

Only devs know.

Brilliant strategy.