Neon asked for a brief summery of melee's biggest problems w/ simple suggetions

"

ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

Melee's four biggest problems, as I see them, and suggestions:

Problem 1 - Lack of damage projection

Solution: Remove melee splash support and fold the functionality of Cleave into every single melee skill on top of what those skills do already.

Explanation: Melee, by its very definition, is going to be worse at projecting its damage onto distant targets than bows, spells, etc. But that doesn't mean it can't be competitive or even superior when it comes to the number of targets hit per attack. If you swing a big 2h weapon around, it should hit SEVERAL targets in an area around you.


Problem 2 - Lack of raw offensive damage output

Solution: Make all of the numbers on weapons bigger, especially those on 2h weapons.

Explanation: In what universe is a single arrow from a longbow going to do the same damage as a greataxe overhead smash? The numbers for 1h weapons should be equal to the numbers for bows, and the numbers for 2h weapons should be 50-60% higher than that.


Problem 3 - Nothing is special about melee (i.e., there's no reason to actually pick it)

Solution: Remove accuracy entirely as a factor for non-projectile melee attacks (essentially, make enemies unable to evade melee damage)

Explanation: The idea of Ground Slam missing is stupid. The idea of Cyclone missing is stupid. The idea of Earthquake missing is stupid. Forcing melee players to work dex or accuracy into their builds - something literally every bow build already does for no opportunity cost whatsoever - is bad for game balance AND makes zero sense.


Problem 4 - Melee usually has to be stationary to deal damage, making it by far the least safe playstyle

Solution: Work motion into melee skills by default. Basically, look at any DMC-type game and then just do that.

Explanation: Nobody is going to stand in one place while swinging a giant club, they're going to shift their weight, step forward, and follow through. So why are our feet ROOTED IN PLACE while we fight in this game? It looks bad, it feels bad, it plays bad; ergo, it IS bad. At least you guys are clearly aware of this problem because you're fixing it in PoE2, but there's no reason why you couldn't have worked it out in PoE1 literally 9 years ago. Here's your equation:

Just take the half of the movement speed of the character in units per second, multiply by the attack time of the character in seconds, and you're done: you now have the units of distance that a character should move forward during that attack. This also solves the knockback problem melee players face, just as a minor side effect.

"

sidtherat wrote:

there are very easy, yet revolutionary for a 10 yo game methods to make 'being ranged' penalized. here are few examples:

- 'point blank' LEECH/LGOH. wanna offscreen? say bye bye to leech/lgoh. this ALONE would give melee identity and a SERIOUS advantage. if bows can facehug - fair enough
- melee needs no accuracy nor mana (make attack skills cost like 1 mana so getting the cost to zero is a norm)
- built-in fortify for melee skills. passive investment increases the duration allowing travelling between packs/boss phases. idc if caster gets 1.2s fortify using glacial hammer with 761 accuracy rating. it is such a small issue that it should not stop melee from getting f.. SOMETHING

that is a start. sure, there are nuances here or there, but any of these changes would shift the balance A BIT and for the first time in a DECADE - in melee's favour (Call to Arm fiasco is a melee's NET LOSS ffs)



as for your suggestion, melee can facetank but at a HUGE cost to dps. a price you cannot pay as POE has soft- and hard-caps on encounter duration. you have to reach certain dps thresholds to not feel shit (degens everywhere etc)

doubling melee damage, outright doubling it, results in:
- less passives needed to reach current damage, ergo:
- more passives for defences and recovery
- less aux buffs needed (if i have 'enough' damage i do not need to stack blood/sand, banner, herald etc), ergo:
- more sockets for utility/defences, less keybinds used
- less focus on damage-granting gear > space for more defensive rolls

give melee more damage -> you get more defences in the end. without it you build glass and try your luck. with low dps there is no point in trying.

"

suszterpatt wrote:

Generally yes, but high damage doesn't solve the problem of monster/boss mechanics that force you to break off the target. Your DPS doesn't matter if you don't get to actually attack because you're too busy dodging instakill slams and DoT pools. What melee needs is the ability to stand its ground.

What it also needs is a better ability to close distances. Someone remind me, which class was it in Diablo 2 that had the Increased Speed passive skill? Sure as sugar wasn't the Amazon.

"

sidtherat wrote:

"

suszterpatt wrote:

Generally yes, but high damage doesn't solve the problem of monster/boss mechanics that force you to break off the target. Your DPS doesn't matter if you don't get to actually attack because you're too busy dodging instakill slams and DoT pools. What melee needs is the ability to stand its ground.

What it also needs is a better ability to close distances. Someone remind me, which class was it in Diablo 2 that had the Increased Speed passive skill? Sure as sugar wasn't the Amazon.

actually, for me, that was only a problem for chars that lacked damage (and it applies to quite a few other archetypes - totem chars also suffer from 'you cannot stand here' boss fight design).

because with enough damage that slight intermission wasnt a deal breaker and to be even more frank - melee has some reach, even the shit skills have some reach, i find it enough to actually NOT break dps. lots of it comes from fight understanding and mechanical skill. Aul's fight is pretty much perfect example of a fight that I find the easiest with no-range builds.. but that is after killing him MANY times.

and after you get your damage doubled you can drop some gems and get yourself busted movement skill + few passives with movement speed. it really makes a difference. but current melee cannot do it due to lack of base power


i hope that people discussing melee can separate objective and subjective. objective is 'damage per div invested' or 'damage uptime'. subjective is 'i do not like dodging stuff' or 'i do not like kiting' or maybe 'i do not like closing gaps with every pack' or finally 'what is slow is dogshit'

i like melee playstyle as it is now. it isnt as fast as ranged, sure. it isnt as flashy or big-brain-power like manastacking whatever. i just like jump into melee and slam the f.. out of mobs. i think that current playstyle is perfectly fine

what is not fine is that - unless you play XXXstacking - you lack damage and no matter how much div you invest, the return on that investment is garbage

"

Lonnie455Rich wrote:

"

sidtherat wrote:

"

suszterpatt wrote:

Generally yes, but high damage doesn't solve the problem of monster/boss mechanics that force you to break off the target. Your DPS doesn't matter if you don't get to actually attack because you're too busy dodging instakill slams and DoT pools. What melee needs is the ability to stand its ground.

What it also needs is a better ability to close distances. Someone remind me, which class was it in Diablo 2 that had the Increased Speed passive skill? Sure as sugar wasn't the Amazon.

actually, for me, that was only a problem for chars that lacked damage (and it applies to quite a few other archetypes - totem chars also suffer from 'you cannot stand here' boss fight design).

because with enough damage that slight intermission wasnt a deal breaker and to be even more frank - melee has some reach, even the shit skills have some reach, i find it enough to actually NOT break dps. lots of it comes from fight understanding and mechanical skill. Aul's fight is pretty much perfect example of a fight that I find the easiest with no-range builds.. but that is after killing him MANY times.

and after you get your damage doubled you can drop some gems and get yourself busted movement skill + few passives with movement speed. it really makes a difference. but current melee cannot do it due to lack of base power


i hope that people discussing melee can separate objective and subjective. objective is 'damage per div invested' or 'damage uptime'. subjective is 'i do not like dodging stuff' or 'i do not like kiting' or maybe 'i do not like closing gaps with every pack' or finally 'what is slow is dogshit'

i like melee playstyle as it is now. it isnt as fast as ranged, sure. it isnt as flashy or big-brain-power like manastacking whatever. i just like jump into melee and slam the f.. out of mobs. i think that current playstyle is perfectly fine

what is not fine is that - unless you play XXXstacking - you lack damage and no matter how much div you invest, the return on that investment is garbage

This man, idk how many casters I've made and in the 80s I just fall asleep playing at 7 pm and rip. I gotta hulk smash.

"

lagwin1980 wrote:

lets just keep it real simple.

The problem with melee is that ranged classes exist.

Why get close to something that can kill you when you can do damage and stay safe.