Transfigured gems have near zero usability versus alternate gems from Heist

Alternate gems were better. But we are ok now.

we are all limited to what the ecosystem provides.

I miss out on returning projectiles, you miss out on whatever else.

my primarry skill has been ignored. FP. probably for the best.
FP is already strong. and it is not meta. we dont need an FP league.
I dont want one.

actually FP is dooing very well this league but unless a streamer
runs my build it will be ignored. zizaran, I am not talking to you.

GO AWAY.

I can live with trans gems, cause I only use 1 of them. and like 6 others
that are vanilla (better results than trans for my build)

I don't buy it, I don't even get the premise of this thread. Alt qual were 90% minor numbers tweaks and a couple actual mechanically different build enablers. Alt qual boneshatter for example allowed stacking ramping speed which was different. Most of them weren't even this build defining.

Transfigured Gems are almost all massively mechanically diverse, totally different scaling, weapon choices, behaviors and incentives. like 70 to 80 % of them have a use case where 90% of atl qual gems were minor numbers increased no one used at all.

I feel like the premise of this thread is a gross exaggeration of the two systems, and I suspect the primary reason for the OP's conclusion that Alt qual was better is that they liked a couple of the alt qual gems for very specific OP/meta use cases and the T-gems don't replace that thing one for one or at all so those couple skills lost applicability for their personal favorite build.

So rather than state a premise thats grounded in reality that a few of the alt qual gems were cool and they liked those better; they try and portray them as overall more interesting and diverse which... I mean thats just very obviously untrue.

"

alhazred70 wrote:

I don't buy it, I don't even get the premise of this thread. Alt qual were 90% minor numbers tweaks and a couple actual mechanically different build enablers. Alt qual boneshatter for example allowed stacking ramping speed which was different. Most of them weren't even this build defining.

Transfigured Gems are almost all massively mechanically diverse, totally different scaling, weapon choices, behaviors and incentives. like 70 to 80 % of them have a use case where 90% of atl qual gems were minor numbers increased no one used at all.

I feel like the premise of this thread is a gross exaggeration of the two systems, and I suspect the primary reason for the OP's conclusion that Alt qual was better is that they liked a couple of the alt qual gems for very specific OP/meta use cases and the T-gems don't replace that thing one for one or at all so those couple skills lost applicability for their personal favorite build.

So rather than state a premise thats grounded in reality that a few of the alt qual gems were cool and they liked those better; they try and portray them as overall more interesting and diverse which... I mean thats just very obviously untrue.

When i heared about transf gems/my thoughts was: cool,we will have a build diversity and they will keep some alt quality like new gems.
Reality: Poison spark dead. Bladevortex leech dead.Blade vortex enchant on duration dead.Bladevortex overall are not the great right now. Tembest shield nerfed. Inspiration Nerfed. Aura stacks - nerfed(build and bots). Build flexability overall nerfed. Frenzy charge generation from Blood rage nerfed. Vortex autobomber dead. Many other builds are dead.

At the same moment how much ppl playing on new gems? Like a point/argument that only low % of gems was popular working on transf gems too. How much playing Divine ire variations? Or Arc of surging when it was fixed?

Similar with enchant.For some builds like bv enchant was very important(cause you could not to spend 7 points in tree for duration nodes and save them) Some builds was flexable in enchant choice and could take any aura mana reserve,but for others it was a "key" point.

Overall new system i like much less and i dont see the issue to combine them.(transf+quality+enchant).

Same with atlas tree. Yes ,sextants was annoying in "clicking" - but it was the way how to modify your farm. The solution could be - we roll modes on watchstones and put the sextants near the stones like stack and they automatically spends and its done.Just let the ppl put there a 100 per time/stack.

You know,if you feel pain in leg - usually its not the best solution to cut off the leg.

So yeah there were a couple specific alt quals you really liked and the T-gems for those same skills/builds you like are not exciting. Fair enough, it would be nice if they would maybe put some of the cooler alt quals into the T-gems. I'd be all for that.

The problem is this feedback (and for example my agreement that they should put them in) is being hidden by the faulty premise that T-gems are just universally inferior. All you get from overgeneralizing and exaggerating THAT MUCH is that people who enjoy the new gems argue with you and your specific feedback is either not stated at all or lost in the noise or both.

Also the popularity argument does nothing, we can't prove which is more or less overall and "the meta" is mostly fashion and perception proving nothing. POEninja is literally a time slice of the first 15k builds to make it to 90, proving very little except that 30-40% of POE players who progress the fastest often copy each other and follow whats in fashion.

You can see from an objective measurement that T-gems contain vastly more mechanical variation than the atl quals. Again like 10% of alt quals had any mechanical variation at all because they mostly had to fit into being 20% quality scaling ratio. Most of them were purely numbers and most of those numbers were not at all build enabling or defining. They were just beneficial math for the most part. Not mechanisms.

Almost every T-gem differs mechanically from the base gem. Almost all of them scale differently, many of them have different prerequisites, weapon selections, additional behavours new build oppotunities in almost every gem a few of them need tuning very badly but the mechanics are there:

Cast X on frostbolt is actually kinda meta (they've been trying to make it a thing semi sucessfuly for 5 or 6 years)

Volcanic fissure of snaking doesn't spit balls out it follows enemies around and explodes. One of the most fun (if somewhat on the weak side dmg scaling wise) slams ever. Buff the dmg and this is a meta skill next league.

Boneshatter of CT doesn't ramp infinitely it wants you to hit break points of attack speed and do ailments.

Storm Brand of indecision mimic old glory days storm brand making people who loved that skill excited before it caught some stray bullets from the Penance brand execution squad.

Firestorm of pelting mimic old school firestorm I for one LOVED old FS and hated the revamps.

Sunder of (forget) mimic old sunder, I also loved old sunder and this return is welcome.

The last three are skills people have been asking for a "revert" for 3 4 even 5 years now.

Molten strike of the Zenith allows INGITE ON A MS BUILD but requires a two hander

EQ of amplification allows a huge bleed or ignite if you're willing to wait around for 6 or 7 seconds.

Tec slam of cata is old original tec slam idea given fresh semi-viable scaling.

BV of blasting is actually bonkers and fun what BV+BB should have been without the extra jank.

Dual Strike of Ambi is what the base gem should have been and is actually usable

DD of chaining is bad ass and being used quite a lot in HC

Wild Strike inverting is a crazy skill with a hard problem to solve but a reward if you solve it.

Frost Blades of Katabasis is a single target for any frost blades build that carefully scales cold % and adds some cold DOT multi (which is whats always been wrong with FB). This one suffers from the fact that using two skills in POE is contraindicated by GGG's 6 link and fusing counter design.

Like seriously GGG if you want people to use a clear skill and a single target skill then make 6L easier and more built in 5 and 6 link's in gloves and boots. Maybe even some rare affixes in the base pool.

I could go on but my coffee is wearing off I've already listed more mechanically build enabling gems than all of the alt qual's had combined IIRC. And I'm betting I could name 20-30 more.

Unfortunately, I think GGG's usual "trickery" with presenting nerfs as buffs and features leads people astray. If you look at what was removed, the real goal of the transfigured gems change was to deploy massive nerfs across the board in player power to allow them to give it back as new league "features" down the road.

Alternate gem quality was a mixed bag; some were really good, some just sidegrades, some downgrades. But enchants? Enchants were almost ALWAYS straight-up upgrades. In some cases, they were upgrades you couldn't feasibly get anywhere else. +25% AoE on blade flurry? Good luck getting that on tree, if you already grabbed the one AoE wheel there is nothing else available, if you DIDN'T grab it because you were short points, that's 4 passives it gave you. And unlike item mods it wasn't coming at any cost, just a free bonus.

I think if you look at the change overall it's explicit that it was meant to nerf player power to give them more design headroom, the messaging was just there to prevent players from raging. I do find this approach to PR misguided because once players realize you are intentionally trying to manipulate and fool them they get MORE angry in the end, and in a way that leads them to hold a grudge, because it wasn't just a nerf you gave them, but you trying to deceive them into thinking it wasn't what it was.

"

Selenti wrote:

Unfortunately, I think GGG's usual "trickery" with presenting nerfs as buffs and features leads people astray. If you look at what was removed, the real goal of the transfigured gems change was to deploy massive nerfs across the board in player power to allow them to give it back as new league "features" down the road.

Alternate gem quality was a mixed bag; some were really good, some just sidegrades, some downgrades. But enchants? Enchants were almost ALWAYS straight-up upgrades. In some cases, they were upgrades you couldn't feasibly get anywhere else. +25% AoE on blade flurry? Good luck getting that on tree, if you already grabbed the one AoE wheel there is nothing else available, if you DIDN'T grab it because you were short points, that's 4 passives it gave you. And unlike item mods it wasn't coming at any cost, just a free bonus.

I think if you look at the change overall it's explicit that it was meant to nerf player power to give them more design headroom, the messaging was just there to prevent players from raging. I do find this approach to PR misguided because once players realize you are intentionally trying to manipulate and fool them they get MORE angry in the end, and in a way that leads them to hold a grudge, because it wasn't just a nerf you gave them, but you trying to deceive them into thinking it wasn't what it was.

Absolutely agree.
BV duration enchant is gone.BV leech is gone too.
Poison sparks are dead.
Vortex autobomber are dead.
And unable to use skill on run button was presented like QoL changes, but its directly the opposite.

Disagree, I found many of the alt quality gems to be in fact much less appealing than the new transfigured gems and it gives good profits from running lab.

I only really looked at those gems for min-maxing not making a build though there are very few exceptions to that where they were useful it was very minor for me.

Not all the transfigured gems are the best they could be for sure but that can change with time but will require more specific feedback than "they're all useless"

Also what determinism did heist offer over lab? You get 3 choices of a gem of the color of your choosing, its way more deterministic than heist in many cases.

"

alhazred70 wrote:

I don't buy it, I don't even get the premise of this thread. Alt qual were 90% minor numbers tweaks and a couple actual mechanically different build enablers. Alt qual boneshatter for example allowed stacking ramping speed which was different. Most of them weren't even this build defining.

Transfigured Gems are almost all massively mechanically diverse, totally different scaling, weapon choices, behaviors and incentives. like 70 to 80 % of them have a use case where 90% of atl qual gems were minor numbers increased no one used at all.

I feel like the premise of this thread is a gross exaggeration of the two systems, and I suspect the primary reason for the OP's conclusion that Alt qual was better is that they liked a couple of the alt qual gems for very specific OP/meta use cases and the T-gems don't replace that thing one for one or at all so those couple skills lost applicability for their personal favorite build.

So rather than state a premise thats grounded in reality that a few of the alt qual gems were cool and they liked those better; they try and portray them as overall more interesting and diverse which... I mean thats just very obviously untrue.

Why they should kill the prev. mechanics? Whats was the problem to add poison sparks like transf.gem ? Or if they remove important enchant on bv duration- just up the skill a LITTLE BIT ?! A lot of things were killed without ANY alternatives. As reality - we didnt get diversity of builds. We got same meta and tones of bullshit skills like BV of the scythe. Explain pls like why someone will play on this? BV of the scythe have 60% less damage then original BV.You have to cast it more often, you have more manacost, you have less damage overall?!

Alt quality were FLEXIBLE min max. Almost everybody who farmed enough they used alt quality auras. Its a BUNCH of gems. Same with enchants.

what was the problem to re-work alt quality gems and make DD of chaing reaction like alt quality gem? Or why alt quality have to be removed? Why not combine both? We had currency that changing quality.

"

Berzal wrote:

"

Selenti wrote:

Unfortunately, I think GGG's usual "trickery" with presenting nerfs as buffs and features leads people astray. If you look at what was removed, the real goal of the transfigured gems change was to deploy massive nerfs across the board in player power to allow them to give it back as new league "features" down the road.

Alternate gem quality was a mixed bag; some were really good, some just sidegrades, some downgrades. But enchants? Enchants were almost ALWAYS straight-up upgrades. In some cases, they were upgrades you couldn't feasibly get anywhere else. +25% AoE on blade flurry? Good luck getting that on tree, if you already grabbed the one AoE wheel there is nothing else available, if you DIDN'T grab it because you were short points, that's 4 passives it gave you. And unlike item mods it wasn't coming at any cost, just a free bonus.

I think if you look at the change overall it's explicit that it was meant to nerf player power to give them more design headroom, the messaging was just there to prevent players from raging. I do find this approach to PR misguided because once players realize you are intentionally trying to manipulate and fool them they get MORE angry in the end, and in a way that leads them to hold a grudge, because it wasn't just a nerf you gave them, but you trying to deceive them into thinking it wasn't what it was.

Absolutely agree.
BV duration enchant is gone.BV leech is gone too.
Poison sparks are dead.
Vortex autobomber are dead.
And unable to use skill on run button was presented like QoL changes, but its directly the opposite.

And yet, Archmage BV is a super viable zoomer build in SC and Ben_ is playing BV + BB of Unloading in HC.

The real "issue" is that people are so unwilling to try new things they never get to experience how fun & exciting many of the new gems are. Shame, really.

"

ArtCrusade wrote:

And yet, Archmage BV is a super viable zoomer build in SC and Ben_ is playing BV + BB of Unloading in HC.

The real "issue" is that people are so unwilling to try new things they never get to experience how fun & exciting many of the new gems are. Shame, really.

Both sets of gems have their duds for sure, Other than game bloat which is something we do have to worry about i can't think of much of a reason not to re-integrate alternate gem quality and given how heist works it is wierd that it would be anywhere but there.

What if they added alternative gcp or a device/other item that could add this alternate quality similar to the catalysts?