Melee Thread #97865

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Well here is the short, sad, hard, truth.

GGG doesn't want to design around melee, at least not true close encounter melee. It leads to all sorts of development issues with regards to the mob encounters they traditionally like.

The current game state, with degens, on death effects, ground and tracking effects, just punishes a close, and/or more stationary play-style.

I heard CW talking about some cool animations coming in PoE 4.0, but honestly, that's just talk. Animations are not whats wrong with melee, and even worse GGG doesn't even really see it as an issue.

I find it nearly impossible that the way the game is designed, that a traditional melee skill/build will compete with ranged/spells.

In summary, the reason it looks like GGG doesn't care about melee (in general), is because the don't.

This is true for every build in the game and it's the most frustrating for me. I can't even stop to read the mirror tablet or an altar without some unseen explosion or phantom popping me long after every mob on the screen is long dead.

What is melee? Hit or stick 'em with an ax, mace, sword or dagger. Reave and Frost blades are about as far from melee as I get. FB though feels more like I'm using a shotgun with endless ammo. Slams? Hardly melee, I never play them.

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Phrazz wrote:

I can follow this. The problem is that certain Slam skills have a HUGE area, where you hit the ground first, just like LS. DO you consider those skills more melee than LS?

This is an interesting question. I've thought about it in the context of sweep, and the feeling 'this is melee' vs 'nah, not melee anymore' somewhere in the AoE - default aoe ice crash definitely feels like melee, area of effect stacked sweep that covers 70 % of the screen does not... yeah, a great definition, I know :D

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Xyel wrote:

Also, it's a scion build that starts from slayer, and most defenses come from divine flesh + phys to elemental damage conversion on items, so this perfectly summarized the problem with melee - it's fine when you first farm items for it on some other build, but there's no way this build makes itself from league start without playing half of the league with something else and then doing a full respec (in particular, all defenses, especially against physical, come from lategame items, so if you were to play this from leaguestart, it wouldn't get through yellow maps by itself).

I find myself in agreement - again - and have to ask: How is this different to spell based builds?


There is a reason why Im usually rocking Freeze Pulse into Arma Brand into the endgame skill of my choice. The additional costs for respeccing the entire tree including ascendancy if need be are still worth it, simply because Ill be done unlocking the entire Atlas and acquiring the initial endgame gear setup way way faster utilizing this progression path and I dont have to endure the slogfest Id surely be facing otherwise.

Its the same across the board for all archetypes.
I simply dont understand why this is somehow a unique melee or "true melee" issue when its clearly not.

Just pick whatever works best early on, do what you have to do and then switch to whatever you want to play. This isnt new. Its been like this for years across the board.
There may have been a time, when endgame wasnt as fast and dmg spikes less punishing and you could pick skills from a broader selection early on but then again: That ship has sailed loooong time ago.

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Orbaal wrote:

I find myself in agreement - again - and have to ask: How is this different to spell based builds?

Completely? I mean, if I look at my past four builds, they are toxic rain occ, absolution/skeleton mages necro, lightning arrow deadeye, and reap/exsanguinate assassin.

All of them grabbed the target main skill(s) the moment they got level for it, and smoothly transitioned all the way to the endgame without any major respecs needed.

If I look at the meta skills, then lightning conduit is played start to finish, RF inq uses different skill until it gets the ascendancy points to sustain rf somewhere in acts6-10 but still plays like a fire spellcaster from the start, explosive arrow uses that from the level it can get the gem, lightning strike is played start to finish, so are spark, creeping frost, kinetic blast, caustic arrow, eow miner... etc

Having to use a completely different playstyle for a major part of progression is definitely not the norm.

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Xyel wrote:

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Orbaal wrote:

I find myself in agreement - again - and have to ask: How is this different to spell based builds?

Completely? I mean, if I look at my past four builds, they are toxic rain occ, absolution/skeleton mages necro, lightning arrow deadeye, and reap/exsanguinate assassin.

All of them grabbed the target main skill(s) the moment they got level for it, and smoothly transitioned all the way to the endgame without any major respecs needed.

You do realize only 1 out of those 4 is actually a spell.
The rest are minions or bow builds.

If I applied the same narrow definition to true spells you are using for melee, so basically comparing "true spells" to "true melee", which means actually casting a spell and not using a bow, not summoning minions or totems and also not throwing traps or mines the list of skills provided by you I didnt quote grows really thin.
See what I did there?


Your basic argument is flawed because it rests entirely on feelings rather than relevant tags. Why is everything mechanically scaling like spells or having a spell tag automatically a spell when you refuse to apply this concept consistently across the board including melee?
You cant just make stuff up based on feelings to support your point.

The reason why Im pointing this out and trying to drive this home is because I think this is the difference between players stating melee was fine and others stating melee is in shambles.
If you simply look at everything using a melee weapon to deal damage (and yes the does include steel skills, helix and for all I care even shield crush) then melee isnt that bad. But if you narrow it down to some skills you like or prefer for whatever reason and this selection of skills happens to be bad, well then melee is in the gutter.

That has little to do with the game tho and rests entirely on your preferences.
This is the point I was trying to make all along.
Be consistent with your definitions and apply those equally across the board, otherwise your argument has no legs to stand on.

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Orbaal wrote:

Its the same across the board for all archetypes.

Personally, I prefer to level with my planned endgame skill as early as possible. I really don't like that 'the community' seems to have accepted the fact that some skills just flat out sucks for leveling. It's as beginner friendly as a punch to the face. "Here, have a million skills, but very few of them feels great for actually playing through the game".

Anyway, the main difference between gem scaling and weapon scaling, is of course that gem scaling skills scale themselves, and a very simple, generic vendor recipe can carry you far into maps. It is smooth for 'most' spells, and you can actually feel the progression you get from leveling up. That feeling is not present as a melee character.

Every time I level a melee build, I feel like I'm on the back foot, especially when leveling with a one-hander - always 'needing' an upgrade, and those are more rare and far between than they should, especially during leveling.

"Just level with Helix", they say. But should you have to? Why should you have to? Why are they making some skills VERY good for leveling, while other skills sucks for both leveling and endgame? Where's the replayability here, making several melee builds, all leveling with Helix - because it's actually more than twice as good as other options?

I LOVED(!!!) playing all kinds of melee builds before 3.15. Cyclone here, Double Strike there. I was a melee only kind of guy - and could do several melee builds each league. Nowadays, I usually don't bother, because 80% of the game feels crap with 80% of the skills.

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Orbaal wrote:

You do realize only 1 out of those 4 is actually a spell.
The rest are minions or bow builds.

I do, which is why I included the next paragraph with other meta skills, many of which are spells.

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Orbaal wrote:

If I applied the same narrow definition to true spells you are using for melee, so basically comparing "true spells" to "true melee", which means actually casting a spell and not using a bow, not summoning minions or totems and also not throwing traps or mines the list of skills provided by you I didnt quote grows really thin.
See what I did there?

No, because you would still have two from the strongest builds in the league, RF inq and spark, followed up by other skills. Right now, on poe ninja, the top 10 most used builds are:
lightning strike
righteous fire
coc ice spear
tornado shot
spark
freezing pulse
creeping frost
kinetic blast
lightning conduit
coc forbidden rite

That's 1 pseudo melee skill, 7 spells, 1 bow skill, and 1 projectile attack.

From the 7 spell builds, 5 level as themselves from the moment they grab the gem; and so do the other three builds.

To argue that melee is in the same spot as spells looks ridiculous in this context, as does claiming that leveling as a different archetype and then doing a full respec is the norm - it's not, and from the top archetypes, only coc builds are played like that.

And it's the same when looking at a day 6 snapshot - when all builds have leveled as themselves because there isn't enough time to re-gear a character and still be on the list - the top 10 builds are then:
lightning strike
righteous fire
explosive arrow
spark
poisonous concoction
venom gyre
lightning conduit
blade vortex
corrupting fever (90 % of which had both kinetic blast and reap in linked gems, so this one is somewhere on the border between a spell and a projectile attack)
vortex

That's 1x melee, 1x bow skill, 2 projectile attack skills, and 6 spells.

Sure, there are spell builds in the spot as bad as melee, but that's comparing average-at-best spells with the top melee builds, with lightning strike being the lone exception...

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Xyel wrote:

No, because you would still have two from the strongest builds in the league, RF inq and spark, followed up by other skills. Right now, on poe ninja, the top 10 most used builds are:
lightning strike
righteous fire
coc ice spear
tornado shot
spark
freezing pulse
creeping frost
kinetic blast
lightning conduit
coc forbidden rite

That's 1 pseudo melee skill, 7 spells, 1 bow skill, and 1 projectile attack.

There, you did it again.
The melee spells turns into pseudo melee because it doesnt fit your narrative while all trigger based spells still qualify as caster although those builds dont ever cast.

If you applied the exact same ruleset to melee, then lightning strike is melee period or the trigger based stuff as well as RF arent casters because they dont cast, therefore they cant be counted towards "true casters" - a term I made up to support my claim. And with that 3 out the 7 spells are gone cuz I say so.


You cant just make up rules as you please.
So everything with a melee tag IS melee regardless whether you like it or not.
If you start selecting melee skills arbitrarily based on your preference for whats melee and whats not, then whats stopping me from doing the exact same thing?

And while Im at: Why not go further and claim only staff based builds are true casters and they cant use armor or evasion, because true casters dont do that.
Ofc only builds actually casting themselves do qualify, goes without saying.
Why? Just because, thats why.


Do you now understand my point? Stop making up your own rulesets.
If everything with a spell tag counts towards spell builds, then the same HAS to be true for melee. You dont get to change it to your liking and apply double standards.

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Phrazz wrote:

Every time I level a melee build, I feel like I'm on the back foot, especially when leveling with a one-hander - always 'needing' an upgrade, and those are more rare and far between than they should, especially during leveling.

"Just level with Helix", they say. But should you have to? Why should you have to? Why are they making some skills VERY good for leveling, while other skills sucks for both leveling and endgame? Where's the replayability here, making several melee builds, all leveling with Helix - because it's actually more than twice as good as other options?

I LOVED(!!!) playing all kinds of melee builds before 3.15. Cyclone here, Double Strike there. I was a melee only kind of guy - and could do several melee builds each league. Nowadays, I usually don't bother, because 80% of the game feels crap with 80% of the skills.

Of course you shouldn't have to. And I agree that the difference is too big to accept the downside of not going SH or hollow palm.

Then again, any other char than the starter that I level I just twink now to rush. I'll have all my stuff (like 21/20 skill gem and awakened supps) ready and around 72-80 I'll respec no matter what.

Any melee-ish or bow char I'll go hollow palm with, because it's broken af and usually fast af with some twink stuff. See I like twinking.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's no longer worth it to me to consider balance that much and I'll just go with whatever works to get to that mapping state. But if you care about that stuff, and you obviously do, yea there should be a better balance. I mean if GGG can mention in a one-liner that they switched ex with div in value, meaning some standard players lost some thousand hours of ingame worth, I just cba anymore either and take this thing for what it's still worth - a fun ride if you have that ton of copium around.

I do appreciate your 'battle' :-) hope you win.