How many of you have read GGG's terms of service?

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Aldora_the_Summoner wrote:

Rule number 1 in life: Don't be a dick.

Personally I think it's all encompassing and quite clear. If a user is outright being a dick to others, abusive, belittling, trolling then it's pretty clear they know they're being a dick.

If a user has to question whether their forum post might be bit dickish, then they're definitely being a dick. For example, trying to be 'clever' and skirt around the rules such as pseudo posting about religion, politics or moderation decisions.

So apparently being a 'dick' is also determined by way of talking about certain topics. That's just playing around with the ambiguity to make it mean whatever you want. You say it's about being 'nice' (well I haven't insulted you so far, so I guess I pass? Or do I?...), and yet just discussing politics or religion counts - what does that have to do with being nice? And apparently one can't even question the moderation, as that's dickish too somehow...

You're also using a variation of that classic 'if it's unclear if you're guilty, you are' presumption, which is about as silly as the 'if you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear' argument for surveillance. It's basically guilty until proven...actually, just guilty period. Very convenient.

There's nothing 'clear' or specific about being a 'dick'. I could find you half a dozen people with a quick search who've been called dicks or the equivalent by some people, who also happen to have lots of followers and/or fans (who I suppose you'll accuse of also being dicks). It is inherently a vague, subjective, abstract and ambiguous term. Who is a dick, or what counts as dickish isn't uniform and never has been. It's also not clearly defined or objectively verifiable or empirically testable. If it was, you wouldn't need to suggest it here - it'd probably already be codified in law. It isn't.

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CAKE wrote:

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Gulch wrote:

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Kopogero wrote:

What you're reading on these forums it's only what GGG mods have allowed.

So?
It's their forum. If they want to only allow threads about coffee cups they have every right to do just that.

Nothing is stopping you from making your own forum with your own ruleset.

This is actually false because companies will try-hard to shut you down once you become bad for the brand.

People said "just make your own twitter if u dislike twitter censorship"

So one was actually made, and it was smashed off the face of internet in just few months after getting popular. (parler)

several companies denied it their services.[40] Apple and Google removed Parler's mobile app from their app stores, and Parler went offline on January 10, 2021, when Amazon Web Services canceled its hosting services.[41][42][43] Before it went offline in January 2021, according to Parler, the service had about 15 million total users.[44]

Parler at least had the resources to resume its activity, but some dude with 50000 poe users would just never be able to relaunch if big corps decided that the forum does not follow woke rules or that it is bad for some big brand.

I've seen many pages with less than 500k users to get blacklisted by providers for allowing free speech. Then they were renamed, hosted under different names etc but it was eventually found out and shut down again.
Even after magically getting server AND provider, you can get shut down by single troll with DDOS, DDOS protection actually works for most pages today thru amazon, alphabet Inc. cloud services so if they denny u service for any random reason u are screwed. From one of their pages"Cloudflare’s 90 Tbps network blocks an average of 87 billion threats per day"
so saying "nothing is stopping you or nobody is stopping you" is just not how the real world works
It is pretty much like saying"do not like 'merica? Make your own country" yeah gl with that.

All it takes is single dedicated troll to shut down any page with under 1m users. Just make up stuff about the page not being woke enough and then ddos it=job done.

People just do not have botomless pit of resources and contacts to keep their pages alive.

+1

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CAKE wrote:

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Gulch wrote:

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Kopogero wrote:

What you're reading on these forums it's only what GGG mods have allowed.

So?
It's their forum. If they want to only allow threads about coffee cups they have every right to do just that.

Nothing is stopping you from making your own forum with your own ruleset.

This is actually false

What? NOTHING is stopping anyone from creating their own forum.
You can create one right this second and talk about rubber ducks, make your own rules for that forum.
I can create one today that talks about POE and trash talk the game all I want.

Your analogy of getting shut down is moot because of the POE subreddit existing.

Parlor was totally different and politics shut them down. (the reason why isn't needed to be discussed here as it will only lead to a pissing match).

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Gulch wrote:

Your analogy of getting shut down is moot because of the POE subreddit existing.

There is a list on Wikipedia (also found elsewhere) of banned subreddits.

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Exile009 wrote:

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Gulch wrote:

Your analogy of getting shut down is moot because of the POE subreddit existing.

There is a list on Wikipedia (also found elsewhere) of banned subreddits.

And not one of them is the PoE subreddit

🤔

Everyone wants some sort of censorship, and every "successful" forum on the internet has some kind of censorship. Everything else is just believing that anarchy could be successful, something that is truly utopic to believe in. It all comes down to the amount of censorship, how something is being censored and what is being censored. That's where the ToS comes into play; letting the users know what's what.

I have no problem joining a privately own forum, accepting their ToS and play by their rules. Why should I?

I haven't read the posts in here, but if someone has actually tried using real life and freedom of speech as an argument, or trying to compare freedom of speech with "General Discussion" in PoE forums, they are missing the mark by a few miles.

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Phrazz wrote:

Everything else is just believing that anarchy could be successful, something that is truly utopic to believe in. It all comes down to the amount of censorship, how something is being censored and what is being censored. That's where the ToS comes into play; letting the users know what's what.

This is the classic false dichotomy - to imagine that the only alternative to the current forum administration is anarchy. That's like saying the alternative to...actually never mind. I won't even be allowed to mention the places in question thanks to the current CoC, even though they're being used to illustrate just how ridiculous this false dichotomy is when it comes to ... administration, let's say ... in the real world. This false dichotomy has NEVER been the case.

Suffice to say the choice isn't simply between a top-down moderation foisted upon us by a fundamentally ... hierarchical organisation? (see how ridiculous the current forum rules are? How much they impede even ordinary conversation, about the forum itself?) ... and complete freedom to say whatever you want.

There are other ways of doing things. For example, and this is found widely in the ... administration ... of the real world too, bottom-up! In other words, a forum community that manages itself. With rules it collectively decides on. And enforcers of said rules whose positions depend to a large extent on that community's support. Yes of course NZ law will have to be respected, but as explained to the other guy, the current CoC is not simply an implementation of NZ law - it goes much further than that. And beyond that minimal standard that GGG has no choice but to follow, everything else about the forums can be centered around community structures that make them truly representative.

Note that, afaik, no one here asked GGG to make the change to the CoC that they did 2 years ago. Nor did NZ law. They did that on their own. That's the kind of thing that would never arise under such a system. And there's many ways of doing this, as is the case in the real world too.

And if you're unsure of what real world things I'm referring to, that's just a further illustration of just how hamstrung conversation here is under the CoC.

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Exile009 wrote:

This is the classic false dichotomy - to imagine that the only alternative to the current forum administration is anarchy.

I wasn't speaking in specifics, I was speaking generally. Every person on earth knows that there are nuances between hard, governmental order and anarchy.

My point; you choose to join a community, you choose to accept the ToS - you want to enter the community because/dispite the rules in question, just to come in and question them? In what you know isn't really a democratic community in any way? It just seems kind of futile in my head.

There are countless of communities out there, where you can discuss whatever you want with like-minded people (and non-likeminded people). Why should you choose to enter this community, just to discuss things they, for various reason, don't want you to discuss? It seems counter-productive.

This does not mean that we necessarily should accept every rule in the world. It just mean that we probably should respect that this privately own forum wants the discussion on this privatly own forum to stay within a certain frame. And the good, old "not being a dick"-moral is good and all, but very subjective, for both users and administrators.

I don't know... It's VERY important for me to have my freedom of speech in real life, and I will defend it with my life. I could never live in a contry that suppresses my freedom of speech. But on a privately own forum, centered around a video game? I have no troubles accepting their rules. If i didn't, I wouldn't be here.

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V3n05 wrote:

That didn't pass their arbitrary rules. So this'll have to do.

Then it was you who made that post I responded to. And just to mention, politics is against the forum rules. That's why your comment you removed. Lol[/quote]

no, it was me, and i just didn't realize that it is politics or religion if i citricize something written in their ToS and telling my honest opinion why a company also has to follow laws, as some people do always think otherwise.

And i wrote, that i don't think , that they misused that ToS so far.

Now i think, i do not write anything anymore in this forum,as anything could be politics or Religion for anyone.

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TorsteinTheFallen wrote:

Also the mtx you bought isn't yours, in case you missed that.

Says who?