Dual Wield Physical Dmg Crit Claw Blood Magic Marauder (need feedback)
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Build Concept:
To build a claw based, physical damage, high crit, fast attack speed, frenzy/flicker, cyclone, endurance, HP regen tank ninja. I chose claws for the innate life leech mod and attack speed which in theory sound like good ideas to pair with a high HP, Blood magic HP regen tank. The build is ambitious (95 points) and untested (to my knowledge). One extra endurance and frenzy charge is picked-up in the Duelist area. Two Diamond skin nodes (30% elemental resists) were grabbed as well. What I'm looking for: - Constructive criticism and feed back on how such a build could be improved, or scaled up/down. - Constructive feed back on build progression as I haven't considered the idea of speccing one way early to mid game and using respec points/regret orbs to alter the tree later on. The Build: Key passives of the build:
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- Troll's blood (1.5% life regen, Marauder start area)
- Diamond Skin (15% all elemental resists, Marauder start area) - Blood Drinker (2% physical attack damage as life leech) - Bloodless (enemies can't leech life from you) - Blood Magic (spend life instead of mana) - Eagle Eye (30% accuracy rating, right of Blood Magic) - Agility (30 Dex, right of Blood Magic) - Unwavering Stance (cannot be stunned) - Steel Skin (30% increased armor, above Unwavering Stance) - Berserking (15% increased attack speed, right of Unwavering Stance) - Max Endurance charge (+1 endurance charge, Duelist start area) - Endurance charge duration (18% endurance charge duration, Duelist start area) - Gholem's Blood (1.5% Life regen, Duelist start area) - Diamond Skin (15% all elemental resists, right of Berserking) - Max Frenzy Charge (+1 frenzy charge, above Diamond Skin, Duelist start area) - Frenzy Charge Duration (18% frenzy charge, above Diamond Skin, Duelist start area) - Dervish (10% increase block chance and physical weapon damage while dual wielding, Duelist start area) - Acceleration (12% increased attack speed, 20 Dex, Duelist start area) - Leather and Steel (24% Evasion Rating/Armor, Ignore Armor Movement penalties, Duelist start area) - Iron Reflexes (converts evasion rating to armor) - Twin Terrors (75% weapon critical strike chance while dual wielding) - Heart Seeker (30% critical strike multiplier, above Arrow Dodging) - Claws of the Pride (12% increased physical damage and 8% increased attack speed with claws, between shadow and ranger start area) - Savant (30 Intel, right of Claws of the Pride) - Fitness (10% Max Life, 20 STR, above Claws of the Pride) - Agility (30 Dex, above Fitness node in Shadow Start area) - Assassination (40% critical strike chance, 20% critical strike multiplier, shadow start area) Some of the passives wanted but not taken:
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- Reduced Mana cost of skill nodes
- Inner Force - Buff duration nodes - Conduit - Additional Savant nodes to ease dependence on Intel from gear - Second Claw passives wheel for more dmg/accuracy/attack speed with claws - More crit strike chance and multiplier nodes - Thick Skin (18% Max life node above Twin Terrors) - Additional Fitness nodes - At least one Chaos resist node Known weaknesses:
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- Lacking chaos resist from passive tree
- No movement speed nodes taken Movement speed = resource efficiency and DPS boost for Cyclone Challenges to Overcome:
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- Intel and Dex requirements of high level claws
- Dex requirements of skill gems - Non STR requirements of auras - Getting 5 Link armor with desired socket colors - Getting enough damage, life, life leech, accuracy, and resists with rare items and passive skills Main Skills:
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- Double Strike and/or Dual Strike for single targets
- Cyclone for AoE - Viper Strike as a boss killer and stack-and-run skill (on secondary weapon setup) - Whirling Blades for mobility - Flicker Stike for mobility and Ninja Fun - Enduring Cry as the endurance charge generator - Frenzy as the frenzy charge generator - Totem - Curse Optional Skills:
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- Lightning Strike for ranged AoE and shock application
- Cold Snap for cheap AoE freeze/Chill application which leads to shattering enemies - Denonate Dead to counter necromancer resurrection - Molten Shell additional protection and some AoE damage - Fire trap and/or Ethereal Knives during early levels to help speed along the leveling process - Blood Rage for endurance charge generation and life leech boosting (must be able to counter the negatives) Totems: I haven't settled on one totem setup yet so, I'm listing what I consider good options.
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- Rejuv totem for life and blood magic based mana regen
- Ice spear + LMP + Spell totem (AoE damage and freeze/chill application) - Spark + Fork + Spell totem (AoE damage and shock application) - Detonate dead + spell totem (AoE damage and lazy countering of necromancer resurrection) - Rain of Arrows + Ranged Attack Totem (physical AoE) - Decoy for enemy distraction Auras:
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- Wrath (Lightning Dmg)
- Anger (Fire Dmg) - Grace (Evasion) maybe if my gear allows for it Additional auras would be used if one or more Blood Magic gems were acquired. Curses: I haven't settled on which curse(s) to use so, again I'm listing what I consider good choices.
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- Conductivity (lightning resist reduction)
- Enfeeble (lower enemy damage effectiveness) - Vulnerability (boosting my physical damage output) - Temporal Chains (slow 'em down and reduce their effectiveness) - Critical Weakness (enemies are more prone to taking critical strikes) - Warlord's Mark for life leech (for additional leech or until life leech support gem) Curse combos:
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- conductivity with lightning strike and/or Spark/fork totem
- Vulnerability with Rain of Arrows + Ranged Attack Totem - Frostbite with Ice spear + LMP + Spell totem - Critical weakness with Ice spear + LMP + Spell totem - Critical weakness with lightning strike and/or Spark/fork totem Flasks:
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- 1x Surgeon's Granite flask of Iron Skin (bonus armor)
- 1x Panicked Hallowed Life Flask of Resistence (instant life recover on low life + resists) - 1x Surgeon's Hallowed Life Flask of Warding (curse removal/immunity) - 1x Surgeon's Hallowed Life Flask of Heat (removes freeze/chill) - 1x Surgeon's Quicksilver Flask of Adrenaline (movement speed) Bandit Rewards:
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- Normal Oak (40 HP), Cruel Kraityn (6% attack speed), Merciless Kraityn (+1 Frenzy Charge)
- Normal Oak (40 HP), and skill points for cruel and merciless - Kill all for 3 extra skill points total Unique items that would support the build:
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- Maligaro's Virtuosity Deer Skin Gloves
- Carcass Jack Varnished Coat - Koam's Heart Glorious Plate (I know it has no sockeets) - Astramentis Onyx Amulet - Fairgrave's Tricorne Leather Cap - Geofri's Crest Zealot's Chain Coif - Bloodseeker Hellion's Paw List of 1.5 speed claws:
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- Cat's Paw (lvl 17, 39/27 Dex/Int)
- Sparkling Claw (lvl 30, 64/44 Dex/Int) - Tiger's Paw (lvl 43, 88/61 Dex/Int) - Noble Claw (lvl 52, 105/73 Dex/Int) - Hellion's Paw (lvl 62, 131/95 Dex/Int) - Imperial Claw (lvl 68, 131/95 Dex/Int) Critical Hit Jump Jets... Critical Hit Jump Jets... Last edited by ghoultek on Apr 5, 2013, 2:42:09 AM
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I'm sure there is room to improve the build, but I'm unsure where and how it can be improved. I don't want to dive into this character project blindly and possibly paint myself into a corner.
Critical Hit Jump Jets... Critical Hit Jump Jets...
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I looked into making a high crit character, but the numbers just don't make it seem worth it.
I see at least 16 points spent on crit, giving you +80% multiplier +185% crit chance so from base crit chance (5%) you go up to 14.25% chance to crit and from 150% damage to 230% damage Assuming your attack does 100 damage Normal(before passives) 100 damage 95% of the time 150 damage 5% of the time =102.5 DPS with passives: 100 damage 85.75% of the time 230 damage 14.25% of the time =118.53 DPS that's 16 passive points spent to get an overall damage bonus of 15.6% Granted, crits also mean status effects like chill, but even considering that, using those 16 points to get 80% elemental damage AND two of the +15% physical damage while DW nodes seems to make more sense to me EDIT I forgot max % to hit is 95%, but still... Last edited by SoggyShorts on Apr 6, 2013, 7:16:16 PM
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Thanks Soggy. The info. is greatly appreciated. I decided to take a brute force approach and compare my build to Invalesco's build, while waiting for replies. Here is his build with 92 points:
http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgYABX0MfQ5IEHsQfxEvEVARlhXXFr8Z1xzcHhonqSgqKPorCiy_LOEwVDY9O-FGcUcGVmNW6lb1X2ptGXBScFZw1X3jfll_xoauh9uIQohri3qMC46KkBuTJ5Ugl9CZV5mamhOdo6Kjpcumf6crpzSsZrGztAy0xbVItve4k7k-uXy71r46wFHAVMEAwcXB88Lsw23GnteG2HbbGttu29Ti9-OE5oHp_utj6-7sGOyw7UHz6vVL_Kv_kw== From his build I tallied up values for : - +% physical melee damage and physical dagger damage nodes = 154% - attack speed increase nodes = 26% - Critical Strike nodes = 275% - Critical Strike Multiplier nodes = 106% - movement speed nodes = 12% - accuracy nodes = 36% - evasion nodes = 86% - all resist nodes = 20% - Energy Shield nodes = 101% - Energy Shield recovery nodes =35% - Intel nodes = 18 - Dex nodes = 4 - Savant nodes = 0 - Agility nodes = 2 - Might nodes = 1 The above does not consider evasion, accuracy, physical damage, and energy shield (his life pool) from stats on gear items. I also didn't consider the evasion, accuracy, physical damage and energy shield coming from dex, intel, str, agility, savant, and might nodes. I stopped comparing once I had the above information. I knew from memory that I didn't grab as many % physical melee damage nodes. There was going to be a big damage disparity before critical strike was considered and in-turn creates a life leech problem. I concluded from the brute force tally that my build won't work very well. I'll revise my build. I'll need more physical damage, critical strike chance, critical strike multiplier. I also think I might have make the build 1-H weapon agnostic, more dual wield dependent, and not pursue the claw wheel in the shadow area of the tree. However, before I go off to revise the build do you (or anyone else who looks at my build) think I have enough life, life regen, and armor boosting nodes for a melee range Blood Magic build that is dependent on life regen and life leech for sustaining. Critical Hit Jump Jets... Critical Hit Jump Jets... Last edited by ghoultek on Apr 6, 2013, 8:57:50 PM
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No problem, unfortunately at this point I'm just theory crafting as I don't yet have an end game character. It's really hard to find information on how much HP is needed end game as people mostly post hardcore characters with insane gear for builds. No matter how much passive tweaking or stat calculating I do I can't give the same answers as people with 6L unique items =P
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After multiple attempts I gave up. The build is just spread too thin. Picking up as many of the HP boosting nodes, physical melee and dual wield damage nodes, critical strike chance, critical strike multiplier, 2x Diamond Skin, Inner Force, Blood Magic, Unwavering Stance, Twin Terrors, and Iron Reflexes requires too many points. With all of the above in the build there is a large disparity between what I came up with and what Invalesco has in 92 points.
The builds that I came up with might still be doable, but will have a lower DPS potential because of Passive Skill Tree design. They are defense and survivability heavy which leads to a more tanky build and play experience. However, I noticed that there would be periods of Intel starvation and/or Dex starvation. Here is the last physical dual wield cyclone build I came up with using 102 points: http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgEBxthYY1BQjM_2SF8_VEnnUu8Oud3yL9SPGS7ZYVcN0iGezacw974B5zbohynoZj_8CLE6Ut-_ZKODfKgHZ4CGYFYEYVKfy2CIVamXtKy6KLUo29_vHcrvTjIJouoS4UCgBS1gS3rvdO0hYBIgXovP-HTxnrkshVoatkE0k2Nw7-Mn7ayqWfOYb5J95c_AGmae-tIdFI9Gpwi4kwx9EH_Gnr6nGNtbr9Du96NieRX2AAZDnA6tKaUUdTrt3Q2QCvzFgUmyOGZPwdi3FziW I next started playing with the idea of an elemental dual wield cyclone build and I ended up with something either very close to or an exact duplicate of the Shocker (elemental bow marauder build). Here is the elemental build I came up with using 102 points: http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgEBxthYY1BQjM_2SF8_VEnnUu8Oud3yL9SPGS4n7ayqcql82VnzwBqQVaeEGjjsOFfiZp760h0Uj0anCLiTDH0Qf8ae2WFXDdIhns2nMPe-Aec26DpS37-GYFYEYVKfy2CIKLXvTjIJQKAFLWBLeu907SFgdPGeuSyFWhq2QTSTY3Dv476nouoS4RjbQ5wOrSmlFHU67VWpl7Ssuluv0ND9z89lVcZ35ZuhZ73ubzKJ3Q2QCgSzFE2DOO98AnHB2PzFEdVW-t1G_E5jp2qH Critical Hit Jump Jets... Critical Hit Jump Jets...
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Last edited by gerichebawer on Apr 8, 2013, 8:18:57 AM
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Every single build which passes within a few points away from Elemental Adaptation is an automatic failure if it doesn't pick it up.
Further down the line, taking Blood Magic keystone means there are no super important auras, which lowers your survivability further (as if it wasn't bad enough as it is in Melee). Not picking up anything to boost armour beside Iron Reflexes means you are pretty heavily dependant on Granite Flasks. That makes things much harder as well. Having only 201% increased HP is simply not enough for a melee build, especially not considering the first three paragraphs of this post. Most of that passive tree is spent circulating around instead of focusing on a good area to get the most out of the points invested. Critical nodes are pretty much a no-no for this build. If you invest in them, you lose other, very important things. You are much better off taking a few "increased physical damage" nodes than a few of the available critical chance nodes. You also have to be ready for physical reflect packs. Which skill would you be using is a very important question. Cyclone is the only physical skill, but it brings heavy penalties to physical damage, and claws are already among the weakest physical weapons. This leads to the conclusion claws are simply a bad pick for physical dual wielding (if you intend to reach higher than lvl70 with the character), and swords/axes pick up the throne. With swords/axes comes Cleave, which is simply superior to Cyclone with this setup. But... Cleave has a 70% damage efficiency and a 40% reduced physical damage while dual wielding "bonus". As a conclusion, dual wielding physical builds are nice to have fun with through the storyline, but they are not viable for endgame. Even with godly gear. The problem is that there is no suitable skill for this setup. Dual wielding is currently only really good with elemental damage. This is the same conclusion ghoultek came to after trying to figure this out. When it comes to elemental dual wielding, a good starting point would be to check VictorDoom's thread in the Templar section. Life is tough... but it is tougher if you're stupid.
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Thanks Ven. for taking the time to look over my build and ideas, and provide good feedback. The game is still in Open Beta. GGG has some re-balancing to do to make melee physical builds more viable and remove the viability bias.
I was banging my head against the wall trying to hammer out a well thought out build. However, each build variation left me with a nagging gut instinct that I was overlooking something important. The 5 big things I overlooked were: - dual wield penalties (see cleave description in post above, no shield/shield block) - damage effectiveness penalties of the skill(s) being used (Cyclone = 40% damage effectiveness) - physical reflect packs in the end game - diminishing returns of armor scaling - and can I dual wield block a reflected physical attack? The diminishing returns on armor scaling and physical reflect packs are a biggie. Elemental damage is mitigated through resists which don't suffer from diminishing returns (only certain end-game maps impose resist penalties). In my physical build I did pickup a 3 point Steel Skin cluster but ignored a 2 point Leather and Steel combo. Even with Steel Skin (+50% armor), Leather and Steel (+24% armor/evasion rating), and Iron Reflexes (evasion -> armor conversion added in), a big physical crit. reflected back might crush my armor and one shot my character or leave me with a sliver of life. Maybe the endurance charges and regen. would save me. The above breeds dependence on granite flasks, endurance charges and the Immortal Call skill which I didn't include in my build. Ven. and others have saved me a char slot, bank space, in-game currency, and 200+ hours of play time that would most likely end in disappointment/frustration. Hopefully this post will be found by other noobies (like me) before they attempt a physical melee build. The cyclone skill and claws need a little love. The 40% damage effectiveness on Cyclone is a little harsh. I'll shelve the 2x Cyclone gems for now. Critical Hit Jump Jets... Critical Hit Jump Jets...
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" Some good information here. Would you suggest 2h for a physical damage build then? I'm currently working on a Marauder physical damage build. I'd like to be as viable as possible for end game, if that means switching from Dual Wield to 2h that's not a big deal right now. Or is physical damage just not really viable for end game at all? Any links to good physical builds would be appreciated. |
