Real Money Auction House RMAH for poe

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ManiaCCC wrote:

Guitar = gear
playing skill = well..just playing skill..

You see?

An expensive guitar will not give you +30 to guitar playing skill.

You can not into logic at all, can you?

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Sickness wrote:

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

Someone with more time to spend on a hobby (and let's look at gaming as a hobby here) has every right to be better than someone who doesn't.

How is that opinion any more valid than
"Someone with more money to spend on a hobby (and let's look at gaming as a hobby here) has every right to be better than someone who doesn't."?

Because money doesn't buy skill. You get better by investing time practicing. In the case of Diablo clones, you get better loot by investing time finding it.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

*stuff*

You realize that the "all the gear, no idea" point that you raise demonstrates that money can't make you win, all by itself?

You still have to know how to gear. Buying the Uber Sword of Doom for a Bow Templar doesn't do you any good. Buying it for a dual wield Marauder, but not having enough HP to survive doesn't do you any good. Buying it on a character that has too many points in Int and not enough in +% Sword Damage won't help much.

You still have to know how to play. If you try to stand there and beat the crap out of everything without properly managing your flasks, kiting when appropriate, using doorways as chokepoints, go toe-to-toe with bosses... You're going to die.

By the way, I don't see it as moot. I see it as something that some people, including whichever mod moved it here, assumed they knew the answer to. But the game is in beta. Now is the proper time to discuss ideas to make the game better. And this is one such idea - big upside, no downside (once you get past the irrelevant moral superiority complexes.) I've also suggested about 15 other improvements, and participated in many other threads (... As you know...) - it's not like my time here is taking away from time doing something more productive.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

Every time someone says something with which I agree (such as 'you cannot buy time, experience and knowledge') you counter with what appears to me to be an assumption of a purchase. Your examples (maid, internship, etc) assume that just because the opportunity is there, that the person purchasing these 'advantages' will use them as such. That is a huge leap in logic in my opinion. It insinuates that people who have maids not only have more time, since they're not using that time to clean their house, but that they use it productively (in the terms of this argument, 'gaining power'). That's just not the case.

Uhm...

What?

There's no "assumption" or "huge leap" - he said (making an assumption...) you can't buy time, knowledge, or experience in real life. I demonstrated how you could buy ("Use money to acquire.") each of those. (Debunking said assumption.)

Whether or not a particular person has the intelligence, desire, or drive to do so really doesn't seem important - Papagoat was claiming that time is a fair unfairness (So to speak) but that money is not, and relating that to a claim that money couldn't buy time, experience, or knowledge "in real life". Anyway, just as you can claim that even if I hire a maid, I may not be productive with the time it saves me, I can claim that even if you can, or do, buy that Epic Sword of Doom, you may not use it productively. You may use it for 5 seconds and decide it's boring to use a sword. Or that the sword is too powerful for the monsters you're fighting. Or that your spells are better than meleeing. Or that you'd rather reroll a Marauder, because your Ranger can't use the Cleave, and you'd really like to be able to Cleave with it. Or because it (or an equivalent item) drops 30 seconds later. Or any number of other possibilities. All of which are equally irrelevant, because I'm not the one claiming that the purchase is productive, or can't be replicated via other means.

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AgentDave wrote:

You realize that the "all the gear, no idea" point that you raise demonstrates that money can't make you win, all by itself?

You still have to know how to gear. Buying the Uber Sword of Doom for a Bow Templar doesn't do you any good. Buying it for a dual wield Marauder, but not having enough HP to survive doesn't do you any good. Buying it on a character that has too many points in Int and not enough in +% Sword Damage won't help much.

You still have to know how to play. If you try to stand there and beat the crap out of everything without properly managing your flasks, kiting when appropriate, using doorways as chokepoints, go toe-to-toe with bosses... You're going to die.

By the way, I don't see it as moot. I see it as something that some people, including whichever mod moved it here, assumed they knew the answer to. But the game is in beta. Now is the proper time to discuss ideas to make the game better. And this is one such idea - big upside, no downside (once you get past the irrelevant moral superiority complexes.) I've also suggested about 15 other improvements, and participated in many other threads (... As you know...) - it's not like my time here is taking away from time doing something more productive.

Of course I realise that -- my opinion re RMAH as a concept is not that different to yours. Wasn't that clear? I just don't want to see it in my county (to return to that metaphor).

You're correct in saying that just having the USOD won't make you invincible, and that you still need to know how to play the game, but I think it's definitely going to confer a lot more functional ability than a guitar built for experts is going to give a newbie to the six-string, as it were. The USOD says on it, 'this is what you need to wield me', in very clear terms. A guitar, on the other hand, generally doesn't come with a mouse-over option for stat requirements.

As for standing-toe-to-toe, I have indeed seen items in games that make precisely that lack of tactical knowledge possible. Not just a sword -- think entire ensemble. Stuff that confers insane hp buffs, armor, etc etc. Combined with a cookie-cutter build, you have an insta-win button. Maybe not in Inferno -- we can't really speak to that yet.

This, of course, comes down to the game more than the player. If you can just buy power and it is effective, then I'd say that's more the game's fault than anything for not rewarding more flexible, creative thinking. Or rather, if it forces uncreative play and possession of the best-and-brightest weapons/gear, then certainly the game is to blame.

I'm glad you don't see it as moot (as if I needed to be told that!) -- but it is. Because what you call the 'irrelevant moral superiority complex' is something the devs themselves have -- isn't 'we won't allow people to buy power' proof of that? You claim they haven't pinned that down well enough, and I agree, but where you see it as a flaw, I see it as an admirable (if admittedly naive) trait. And while you can say it's just beta, I think even you would be surprised if they introduced an RMAH between now and open beta/soft release. It's not. going. to. happen.

And if it does, like I said, won't be the first time I've backed the wrong horse. I'll take my birds and be off.

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AgentDave wrote:

Uhm...

What?

There's no "assumption" or "huge leap" - he said (making an assumption...) you can't buy time, knowledge, or experience in real life. I demonstrated how you could buy ("Use money to acquire.") each of those. (Debunking said assumption.)

Whether or not a particular person has the intelligence, desire, or drive to do so really doesn't seem important - Papagoat was claiming that time is a fair unfairness (So to speak) but that money is not, and relating that to a claim that money couldn't buy time, experience, or knowledge "in real life". Anyway, just as you can claim that even if I hire a maid, I may not be productive with the time it saves me, I can claim that even if you can, or do, buy that Epic Sword of Doom, you may not use it productively. You may use it for 5 seconds and decide it's boring to use a sword. Or that the sword is too powerful for the monsters you're fighting. Or that your spells are better than meleeing. Or that you'd rather reroll a Marauder, because your Ranger can't use the Cleave, and you'd really like to be able to Cleave with it. Or because it (or an equivalent item) drops 30 seconds later. Or any number of other possibilities. All of which are equally irrelevant, because I'm not the one claiming that the purchase is productive, or can't be replicated via other means.

Irrelevant or not, that's the counterargument. Please understand (he said again, almost pleading) that I'm not arguing against you or your claims -- I'm merely responding to what is said. I do all of this at a level of remove befitting the environment.

Again, it comes down to simplicity of usage. If you want to be a moron and buy the ESOD (what happened to the USOD? I liked it better) before knowing whether or not you like wielding a sword, be my guest -- but it's still a heck of a lot easier/lazier to do so than to hire a maid and then use that time to learn how to use a sword (or whatever activity you see as granting power). Laziness is the key here, too: I see it as lazy to buy the USOD/ESOD rather than hunt for it or trade for it with other things gained in-game. And I must iterate, I will never stop believing the following:

Buying items that affect gameplay with real money is cheating to me.

To be completely honest, this has always been simple and common sense to me, and only here have I encountered a very coherent, complicated form of disagreement. It's fascinating, really. I won't pretend anything you can say will change my mind (you knew that, right?), but I pay you the same courtesy. I suppose because it's not my mind (thoughts) that would need changing, but my heart (feelings). Of course, said feelings have some root in thought, but for whatever reason, they've become potentially irrational and impervious to the assaults of logic.

...But it's still very interesting to discuss. I think it'll be more interesting still in a month or two, or maybe half a year, but by then I expect far more honed minds than yours or mine will have started to tackle the repercussions/outcomes of the RMAH in an ARPG.

And then there's always the footnote to everything I've said, something deeper than even the truth above: I'm not immune to the allure of cheating, either.

Which is also part of why I choose a dry county. But you knew that too, right?

Most people simply do not wish for their real lives to follow them into a game.

Nobody wants to sit down to play after a hard day working 10 hours for $10/hr, pulling 60-80 hour weeks... just to sit down, relax, and put in 2-4 hours each day towards their gaming goals... just to have rich people swoop in and buy all the best stuff that they would have normally been able to trade for... knowing that no matter how much you play, you'll never have the quality of stuff that guy just bought, because he makes $50/hr IRL.

It really comes down to that... People play games to escape, and having money = power and efficiency in such a game is detestable to most people. (many people still dislike this even in default without a ladder, simply because they still want a shot at the best items)

Realistically, based on what I've seen in game economies over the last 10 years, 1 hour at a job typically buys MANY hours worth of game resources. Most people do not have a substantial amount of surplus money in real life... typically why they play games, because they are cheap entertainment on a per hour basis. The work/power ratio is really the biggest issue here... in that you can work 1 hour, but get perhaps 10-50 hours worth of game value out of it or more... this means that playing the game and not having a good job actually puts you substantially behind. You required 10 hours to do what the rich guy did in 1 hour of work and 1 hour of play.

Again, that's just not intended play.

If you worked for 1 hour, and someone hunted an item for 10 hours and then charged you 20 hours worth of pay, and that item then allowed you to save perhaps 50% time in comparison, so you play another 10 hours and get 15 hours worth of value due to the purchase... perhaps such a trade would not be a problem, since your purchasing efficiency is worse than their playing efficiency.

I've seen many games where people farm for 1000 hours, but their 1000 hours worth of loot is only worth perhaps 50 hours or less of job pay. If 1 hour in the game was worth 1 hour at work... I'm not sure anyone would care...

@Charan- Items/buffs you have seen in other games aren't really important. Despite being in off-topic, we're talking about Path of Exile. So... Why are we talking about them?

@zeto - That entire argument is predicated on the assumption that in game items are expensive. If the best item in the game sells for $1USD, it doesn't matter.

In games where there is a free economy (I named several previously - WoW, DDO, LotRO, someone else mentioned GW, EvE...), the value of the items that are allowed to be bought and sold is very low. Empirically, this is demonstrated to be "not a problem". Even with the illegal, price inflated, risky sites (where you pay a premium for said risk...), great items ("Windforce") are very cheap (I think I recall people saying 1-2 dollars?), it's only the best of the best of the best that goes for double digits.

While partially true (cheap enough equalizes payment for most,) that takes a substantial amount of time for the economy to generate such a surplus... and additionally, I've seen games where this is just not true, and items go for hundreds of dollars. So both sides occur.

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AgentDave wrote:

@Charan- Items/buffs you have seen in other games aren't really important. Despite being in off-topic, we're talking about Path of Exile. So... Why are we talking about them?

@zeto - That entire argument is predicated on the assumption that in game items are expensive. If the best item in the game sells for $1USD, it doesn't matter.

In games where there is a free economy (I named several previously - WoW, DDO, LotRO, someone else mentioned GW, EvE...), the value of the items that are allowed to be bought and sold is very low. Empirically, this is demonstrated to be "not a problem". Even with the illegal, price inflated, risky sites (where you pay a premium for said risk...), great items ("Windforce") are very cheap (I think I recall people saying 1-2 dollars?), it's only the best of the best of the best that goes for double digits.

If you could buy power in PoE, would you?

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xxnoob wrote:

If you could buy power in PoE, would you?

Sounds like a trick question.

If I say yes, you accuse me of being a biased cheater and tell me to go play D3.

If I say no, you say that there's no point in adding it for me, since I wouldn't use it.

(No, I wouldn't. As I said earlier, I support it for ideological and intellectual reasons - I don't like people telling other people what to do in areas that are none of their business. Plus, I find many of the "anti" arguments to be logically absurd. Plus, as a game designer, I know how easy it is to remove options you don't like (if you're willing to accept the consequences.))

Place-holder -- playing evil twin Wraeclast. ;)