Real Money Auction House RMAH for poe

I literally restated what he said in the very post you quoted.. How on earth is that 'commenting in his name'?

Anyway, Dave cleared it up already.

"

AgentDave wrote:

"

Ragnar119 wrote:

I understand now, I think.
For me, things like knowledge, experience, time, luck in game (as in game mechanic, not luck as luck per se) all of them should be a advantage how I see it.

But even if they are not, thing like RMHA, is one more advantage and will make it more unfair than already is. More things you put on the list, more unfair system is, so why implement RMHA also?

Because your statement that "(the) more thing you put on the list, (the) more unfair (the) system is" is logically flawed.

Money is an alternative to time, luck, experience, knowledge, and connections. If you already have Uber Sword of Doom because you play 16 hours a day, money doesn't help you. Or if it's because your brother gave you one. Or your old guildmate. Or because you got the perfect roll when you Orbed on the first 6 slot you found (Which was linked and the right colors). Or whatever.

Hmm, but should people with knowledge, more experience, time to play have a advantage over people that dont have it?

Why would you want to make people that don't have time, experience, knowledge, but have money, be same as to people that have all of this things?
Should not people with lot of time and experience have advantage over others?

I'll reference my own previous post on this subject, but one could argue that the intended play of these types of games is that of free time and how you choose to spend it.

If you choose to spend your free time on other things than the game, that does not, in any way, convey that you should be able to convert that into the game you chose not to play.

Intended standards in competitive games are the basis for the game itself... and in default leagues where there is little to no competition, it's pretty much irrelevant. However, in competitive leagues you are not intended to be able to convert your time spent elsewhere into game progress. Since many other factors are intrinsic to the game itself, including friends, they are perfectly fine.

It's simple to ask: should a person making $300/hr be able to win a league and take credit for that by paying people to play and buying items? The answer to that is clearly no...

Bottom line is that if the intended spirit of the rules of the game do not specifically include external factors, then those factors are excluded from that game. That pretty much goes for any game that has ever been created, and is the core basis for each game.

You can't win rock, paper, scissors by pulling out a bazooka. Arguing for bringing in external factors, simply because people do so and it cannot be stopped, is an erroneous argument. Likewise, arguing that other factors which are intrinsic to the game environment permit the use of money as a like-commodity, is also erroneous.

"

Ragnar119 wrote:

Hmm, but should people with knowledge, more experience, time to play have a advantage over people that dont have it?

Why would you want to make people that don't have time, experience, knowledge, but have money, be same as to people that have all of this things?
Should not people with lot of time and experience have advantage over others?

In short: No.

People with skill should have an advantage. (and, in an ARPG, they do. You can kill any boss with practically any gear/spec if you're good enough.)

Everything else should be as equivalent as possible. Time isn't any more or less fair than money isn't any more or less fair than having the comprehension to read theorycraft so that when you do play, you play the most optimized character possible isn't any more or less fair than isn't any more or less fair than having been playing for 6 years compared the the guy who just found the game today isn't any more or less fair than having a guild that migrates from another game (and so on.)

Well obviously competitive leagues would not have an RMAH, zeto. That seems like a fairly straight forward option.

As for this:

"

If you choose to spend your free time on other things than the game, that does not, in any way, convey that you should be able to convert that into the game you chose not to play.

It's not really about how you spend your free time, it's about how you spend your total time.
There are A LOT of people that simply don't have all day to play a videogame. Are those people not entitled to certain items that people with more [free time / less responsibilites] ARE apparently entitled to?

"

Tagek wrote:

Well obviously competitive leagues would not have an RMAH, zeto. That seems like a fairly straight forward option.

Concept of competition is relative to the individual... This puts the onus on the game designer to intend it or not. If the default league is considered by the designer to be a continuous race to the best possible gear, then that is a competition.

It all falls on the creator of a game to define what is within the game, and what is external to the game.

"

Tagek wrote:

There are A LOT of people that simply don't have all day to play a videogame. Are those people not entitled to certain items that people with more [free time / less responsibilites] ARE apparently entitled to?

No, since they didn't play the game, they are not entitled to anything in the game.

I will add that if the game creator specifically adds that provision, then yes, they could be. Most games don't allow you to come in with external resources and just buy in... but some could.

POE is not one of those games though, with their concept of ethical transactions and all.

Most games have intrinsic rules that prevent issues like this... you cannot win at chess if you don't practice and play... you cannot win at soccer unless you practice, play, and are physically present... etc. You can't win Monopoly with your kid just because you worked all day and can plop $1000 on the game board when you get home... This issue only exists because

1) you're playing with people you don't care about
2) you are playing it in a digital medium where some rules are difficult or impossible to enforce that would be enforced elsewhere

"

AgentDave wrote:

"

Ragnar119 wrote:

Hmm, but should people with knowledge, more experience, time to play have a advantage over people that dont have it?

Why would you want to make people that don't have time, experience, knowledge, but have money, be same as to people that have all of this things?
Should not people with lot of time and experience have advantage over others?

In short: No.

People with skill should have an advantage. (and, in an ARPG, they do. You can kill any boss with practically any gear/spec if you're good enough.)

Everything else should be as equivalent as possible. Time isn't any more or less fair than money isn't any more or less fair than having the comprehension to read theorycraft so that when you do play, you play the most optimized character possible isn't any more or less fair than isn't any more or less fair than having been playing for 6 years compared the the guy who just found the game today isn't any more or less fair than having a guild that migrates from another game (and so on.)

Why should people that have more time not have a advanteg over people that dont have time?
If I play the game for 40h, i should have a advantage over the player that doesn't have time to play that much.

Well obviously a league created with competition in mind, as I said, would not have an RMAH.

"

zeto wrote:

... and in default leagues where there is little to no competition, it's pretty much irrelevant. However, in competitive leagues you are not intended to be able to convert your time spent elsewhere into game progress. Since many other factors are intrinsic to the game itself, including friends, they are perfectly fine.

It's simple to ask: should a person making $300/hr be able to win a league and take credit for that by paying people to play and buying items? The answer to that is clearly no...

Bottom line is that if the intended spirit of the rules of the game do not specifically include external factors, then those factors are excluded from that game. That pretty much goes for any game that has ever been created, and is the core basis for each game.

As far as I know, the Pro-RMAH faction has ceded that the RMAH would only be available in default (and probably legacy.).

Otherwise, there IS something to win, and the "pay 2 win" objection becomes applicable, regardless of whether it's logical or not, fair or not, etc.

As for your 3rd paragraph... I can't really agree. Money isn't an implicitly included factor in Magic the Gathering, but clearly the player with more money has an advantage. Knowledge is applicable in electronic battleship (there are only so many configurations available that the computer "knows", and a player could memorize them and use that to their advantage.). Time isn't implicitly included in any game with a set timeline (for example, "Zuma Blitz" on facebook...), and yet it's clearly an advantage. Friends can't help you in Chess, but they can absolutely affect the game in Munchkin or Risk. And so on. Explicit exclusion is required (or a design which eliminates the relivence.), and once something is explicitly excluded, it's perfectly reasonable to question why THIS is excluded and THAT isn't.