youre doing it again [Removed by Support]

"

I can agree that there should be some way to counteract power creep in the game, but an artificial DPS cap is exactly the wrong way to go.

I can't think of a faster way to make players quit - "well I hit the cap after playing for 2 days. Guess I'm done for this league."

If I want to invest my time and energy into making a build that can 1-shot an end-game boss then who are you (or the devs) to decide I can't do that? It shouldn't be an easy goal but at least leave the possibility.

"

HazaRdReborN wrote:

But, judging from your PvP reply as well, I can see you care little about player skill and just want to jump into maps press one button and have a screen get deleted based on how good your gear is.

Cool. Its people like you we should thank for all the nerfs <3

No idea what you're even talking about.

Scrap that... I totally mixed you up with another comment my bad. Sorry.

Was it you that also mentioned the game is easy or was that still the other guy?

Anyway, like I mentioned to the other reply, hitting the cap in 2 days simply wont be possible. Im talking about a proper end game cap, and not just some random small number that every build will surpass in 2 days and make the gameplay pointless.

And I am no-one to decide anything. But if we are making such a question, then who are you to tell me that I shouldn't play with my request either?

No-one. You, and I, are no-one. Simple. We are expressing our personal subjective opinions.

And the problem in all this is that our opinions will effect each other, so all we can do is justify why we think something would work or not in whichever way we prefer it.

We can agree to disagree and that is ok, but to outright ponder on who I am to make my opinion known? :D

Anyway, a game is designed in a certain manner to keep its players happy, right? And a game is designed in a manner to achieve a desired result in its gameplay, right? Like Dark Souls, its designed in a manner to kill you every second turn. Should we tell those devs "who are you to tell me how to play this game"?

PoE was never intended to be a one shot game. That is simply not the nature of it, and that is the very thing that becomes boring to people in the end and they want new content or new powerful builds to play with.

In my opinion if you make the boss encounters mean something and have a reasonable means to diminish the effects of over the top builds, then it keeps the game in check and stops the nerf requests and the power creeping. It makes each build you have accomplished all the more important because you know it wont be useless next patch. And it also allows for people to try and push other builds to their maximum.

Say for example you are doing some ridiculous numbers like 500k dps... Well, grz, thats awesome and all, but clearly if that one shots a boss that goes against the intent of the content made which is the very reason devs netf (and mentioned they want to make PoE hard again and are striving towards that direction). Because people are seemingly one shotting things.

So if you are going to make a build weaker anyway, or a boss have more health, then why should it be harder in a manner that makes the other 90% of builds other players have that are not as good suffer even more? Way I see it that is an even better way to get people to stop playing the game as they feel the grind is hardly worth it to be able to do a measly 10 or less end game bosses.

I think they can both make the game as accessible as it is to weaker builds but quite challenging, and the stronger builds, which will clearly still perform better, to not be as ridiculous as 10 second kills.


Again, we can agree to disagree, but as per subjective personal taste goes, I think easy bosses are the death of a game and make it mind-numbingly boring. And if my build say has reached that bosses cap, I am still happy to push it further to be able to do other content vs non-boss encounters faster and perhaps, like I said in the other reply, it would make even more sense for them to add some end game content from time to time reflective of those really strong builds (that being, bosses with higher caps)...

If not hard cap, as I said a soft cat at least. Something that mitigates damage after a certain point in % at least.


Lastly, you have to realise, after seeing all the nerfs of the past, that pushing a build to its extreme will never have that build remain as so, right? And said build nerf will also effect smaller builds right? So, isnt it the same as not having to deal with that nerf in the first place? Its still going to dictate how you play the game with said build, this being, not be able to do one shots etc. Hence, same result. You simply dont need to bother with a cap.



Anyhoot. I'm off to slay some Wraeclasts' worst. lol.

Take care guys. And thnks for the insightful opinions as well, agree or disagree.

"

raics wrote:

"

HazaRdReborN wrote:

I think this is the best solution to our problems.

I'm against hard caps, it usually isn't anything that can't be done with scaling the damage properly. With diminishing returns you decide when your build can't afford to invest in dps anymore, with hard caps the game decides for you.

Yes, but those caps can be implemented in a way which makes sense.

For example instead of limiting the actual DPS your character does it could be based on the mob. Let's say a white mob can loose 50% of their health per second max, a blue can loose 33%, a rare 20% and a unique 10%. This way you can't just faceroll content mindlessly on one side but on the other it makes sense to scale far above the mobs as you're prepared for harder content.

As a few side-effects of such a mechanic it would also far better show a player when the capacity of their build is reached, either by the mobs not falling quite as quickly, and also allowing for gear and mechanics which scale far further upwards then it does now, without causing issues for the felt balance towards any part of the game.

"

It completely takes away player agency as well as a sense of progression from investing in a build - if a fight will always take 5 minutes, no matter what I do, why would I care to improve further?

Usually the incentive to improve further lies with scaling mechanics that enforce this improvement. We already got the first baby-step with delve, though after a specific depth delve is just... one-shot by white mob, screw defense besides evasion/dodge/block as it doesn't matter anyway, your EHP-pool is always '1'.

By properly adjusting the scaling it means that players are far longer engaged, lower depth doesn't start to feel 'overwhelming' and makes you die over and over but actually enforces to steadily upgrade your gear.

This also takes care of 'power-creep' completely as the creep is only a means to the end to scale quicker or in a different way, never causing former content to become completely obsolete.

"

Kulze wrote:

"

raics wrote:

"

HazaRdReborN wrote:

I think this is the best solution to our problems.

I'm against hard caps, it usually isn't anything that can't be done with scaling the damage properly. With diminishing returns you decide when your build can't afford to invest in dps anymore, with hard caps the game decides for you.

Yes, but those caps can be implemented in a way which makes sense.

For example instead of limiting the actual DPS your character does it could be based on the mob. Let's say a white mob can loose 50% of their health per second max, a blue can loose 33%, a rare 20% and a unique 10%. This way you can't just faceroll content mindlessly on one side but on the other it makes sense to scale far above the mobs as you're prepared for harder content.

As a few side-effects of such a mechanic it would also far better show a player when the capacity of their build is reached, either by the mobs not falling quite as quickly, and also allowing for gear and mechanics which scale far further upwards then it does now, without causing issues for the felt balance towards any part of the game.

"

It completely takes away player agency as well as a sense of progression from investing in a build - if a fight will always take 5 minutes, no matter what I do, why would I care to improve further?

Usually the incentive to improve further lies with scaling mechanics that enforce this improvement. We already got the first baby-step with delve, though after a specific depth delve is just... one-shot by white mob, screw defense besides evasion/dodge/block as it doesn't matter anyway, your EHP-pool is always '1'.

By properly adjusting the scaling it means that players are far longer engaged, lower depth doesn't start to feel 'overwhelming' and makes you die over and over but actually enforces to steadily upgrade your gear.

This also takes care of 'power-creep' completely as the creep is only a means to the end to scale quicker or in a different way, never causing former content to become completely obsolete.

no need of caps, if someone wants to build a glass cannon so be it. Problem i see is that players can spend 70% of their skill tree into defence nodes and still do high damage due to all the "more" suports and couple OP items.

i think it will be easier to balance offence vs defence if GGG tranfers part of gems and items power to the skill tree say:

life/ES/armor/eva on gear reduced, nodes give: 5% life and +10 life, 6% ES and +20ES, 10% armor and +flat armor, 10% eva and +flat eva

base damage on skills reduced, nodes give: 10% increased damage and + flat damage of apropiate source.

Okay, so I'll come out of hiding to reply to this post as I think it touches on two sides that are perhaps equally important to address.


First of all, the elephant in the room that used to be a mosquito, power creep.
I completely get that it may draw new players in when you promise them power. It looks good on reveals, it feels good on demos, it's just great overall to fuel the hype. Last thing you want to do as a player is feel the struggle a year or more ahead of time, BUT

Power creep, I feel, has undermined what Path of Exile was trying to accomplish in the very early stages of the game. I'm not talking about the meta shifts every league, that's something else entirely and not really the problem the way I see it. I hope that the wonderful folks at Grinding Gear will realise that sometimes letting a bunch of players go is alright if it means you're staying true to yourself. All too many studios eventually dance to the tune set by the popular majority and while that may be lucrative business model, it also shifts you into becoming what everyone else is. (no pun intended here guys)


Secondly and this is more of a personal note to OP here, could you please stop using the word "donate" when addressing the money you've spend on Path of Exile? You cannot donate to Grinding Gear, it's not a charity organisation. What you have done is purchased various things that you still very much have access to today. There is no donation to speak of. The idea of donating also seems to strengthen your belief that you are somehow entitled to be heard or have a say in the direction of the game. I'm sorry, but that's not how it works.

In your defense though, I have voiced concerns for a long time now regarding the moderation on these boards and how their rules and enforcement of them puzzle me and frankly concern me greatly of late, which is why I have decided to refrain from posting much at all anymore, this post being the exception. I am right there with you on that front and I do feel that your thread's title now looks far worse than it would have, had it not been edited by Support. I... just don't know what to tell you, mate. I never got a real reply from them on the topic, despite asking senior staff members. You're not alone in this.

"

Kulze wrote:

Yes, but those caps can be implemented in a way which makes sense.

Still, if your game needs caps it means you fucked up, I'd prefer if they fixed it.

"

raics wrote:

Still, if your game needs caps it means you fucked up, I'd prefer if they fixed it.

Yeah, I fully agree.

But at least it's better then keeping the current situation, which mildly spoken... is a disaster.

"

Kulze wrote:

Yes, but those caps can be implemented in a way which makes sense.

For example instead of limiting the actual DPS your character does it could be based on the mob. Let's say a white mob can loose 50% of their health per second max, a blue can loose 33%, a rare 20% and a unique 10%. This way you can't just faceroll content mindlessly on one side but on the other it makes sense to scale far above the mobs as you're prepared for harder content.

That would still be pretty terrible imo.

Now you would have a game where people would be like :

"Oh, I reached the dmg cap now, any damage beyond that point it going to be pointless, so I'm going to just stop min maxing even though my character could be 'better' because what's the point .... I guess I'm done with it then."


"Artificial" caps (both soft-caps and hard-caps) would just be band-aid.
Having diminishing returns though is different, this is not an arbitrary cap put somewhere, that is something that will naturally happen the more people min-max, and it could be implemented well imo.

But I don't think that GGG is interested in that anyway.

"

Fruz wrote:

Now you would have a game where people would be like :

"Oh, I reached the dmg cap now, any damage beyond that point it going to be pointless, so I'm going to just stop min maxing even though my character could be 'better' because what's the point .... I guess I'm done with it then."

Aren't you describing the current situation of the game in general though? :p
That's what power-creep has done to it sadly.

"

Fruz wrote:

"Artificial" caps (both soft-caps and hard-caps) would just be band-aid.
Having diminishing returns though is different, this is not an arbitrary cap put somewhere, that is something that will naturally happen the more people min-max, and it could be implemented well imo.

But I don't think that GGG is interested in that anyway.

Which is sad, the game would be magnitudes better if GGG had the balance-priority several steps higher.

But yeah, once again, I'm fully on your side, they are a band-aid, but that band-aid would be at least better then the current situation, and at the moment anything is better then the current situation as it's gone so far out of control sadly.

honestly, they might as well just keep the candy crush power creep up, because changing it now would be far too little, years too late.

the players who care(d) already stopped playing.

i don't even bother bumping the power creep thread anymore. there's no point.

"

Kulze wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

Now you would have a game where people would be like :

"Oh, I reached the dmg cap now, any damage beyond that point it going to be pointless, so I'm going to just stop min maxing even though my character could be 'better' because what's the point .... I guess I'm done with it then."

Aren't you describing the current situation of the game in general though? :p
That's what power-creep has done to it sadly.

Well .... I guess that you could arguably say that, although outside of e-pen, it is still usefull to delete everything as fast as possible ( minus boss phases ).
We also have stupidly beefy blight unique monsters, and some red beasts too.

"

Kulze wrote:

Which is sad, the game would be magnitudes better if GGG had the balance-priority several steps higher.

Agree