Time Capsule from PoE Closed Beta -- a classic PoE vs D3 thread circa 2012

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rpgfiend wrote:

Let's be honest though,from what I've seen of Path of Exile,it looks good if all you are looking for is a Diablo 2 experience with some slight improvements.And if that's all you want in an Arpg,then that's great.Nothing wrong with that.From what I've seen in D3,it looks like Blizzard has actually done what they did with D1,and that's create something fresh and different.Which is also good.So it will come down to playing whatever you prefer,but of course D3 will have a lot more players.

Ok, but why did you refer to POE as a whore in new make-up.
Do you think D2 was a 'whore'? Because I really can't see in what kind of a world being a whore is a good thing.

This response is for Tagek, as I was answering him directly with my silly 'what-if'; the rest of you having a go at it, stop piggybacking on his work. His consistent queries, always civil and rational, earned that effort from me, even if it was done somewhat tongue-in-cheek and on the fly. Seriously.

Like I said, Tagek, you KINDA put me on the spot, it was like, 11pm and...hey, that's excuse/reason enough for me babbling a flawed suggestion, at which the D3 fans here had a nice poke and giggle. WD and the Fifth could share the ranged, but whatever. I'd probably rename it from Witch Doctor if I were to give more weight to the ranged. But since I didn't clarify that, allow me to here: you asked what I wanted to see, and I didn't answer sufficiently. Because the real answer is a lot more intensive than simply 'the fifth class changed.' The real answer is, 'I'd like to see five new classes.' But as you well know, I was still willing to overlook the blandness of the new roster for the skill system, etc., etc.

I *did* preface my speculation sufficiently with the usual caveats, didn't I? Blizzard had years to come up with some nice, original ideas and I maintain they failed for the most part. I also maintain they knew it wouldn't be necessary to introduce much new. After all, you appear happy with what they've done.

But let me point out, again, the jumps: D1 to D2, you had exactly zero repeat classes. SO many interesting and new methods of play came with D2; the shift from D1 to D2 was absolutely paradigmatic. Revolutionary. D2 to D3, you can say the evolution was more subtle, more to do with the mechanics behind the classes, but the truth remains that there are a lot more recycled (or updated, if you want to be generous) character concepts in D3 than in D2. That's part of my gripe. It's just not as overwhelmingly innovative as from D1 to D2. Given the change in core design teams, none of us are surprised at this.

The dual crossbow thing is fairly irrational of me given, yes, strafe, fireballs, summons, etc. I would have NO problem with the crossbow deal *if* they stipulated the weapon didn't fire actual bolts but instead used pure magic or the like. That covers that. But instead you're left making this crap up for yourself as Blizzard simply say 'hey THIS is cool!' and let the fans lap it up. I mean, they're already referring to one of the crossbow skills as a rocket launcher. Can you take that seriously?

http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/blizzard-on-the-demon-hunters-rockets

Just found this. It doesn't begin to satisfy me at all. Sure, he mentions alchemy and magic, but this is a response to a query, not an offering up-front. It is, in short, a plug for a hole that I think Blizzard know most people won't care about. Even I saw those skills and snickered; what a sign of the times.

That Bashiok fellow sure knows how to dance. I presume it's a large part of his job.

So I see strafe as magically, supernatural. I can handle that. It certainly simulates a real-life machine gun (I thought it looked awesome!) and, somewhat retroactively, I can imagine Bloom's Legolas doing something similar with enchanted gear, etc. But the faux-tech of dual crossbows, the usage of the word 'rocket' when no actual combustion process or gundpowder is used? The twits should have just sucked it up like ArenaNet did and introduced basic firearms. Or some innovation between magic and tech to create arcane crossbows.

Edit: about dual-wielding in general. Yeah, it's kinda silly really. Even if Musashi 'mastered' it, not many after samurai him were able to. Rapier/main gaunche, obviously, is much more viable, as is the dual-wielding of smaller arms like daggers and butterfly knives/swords. As for guns, yeaaaaah that's silly too. But it's cool. And I've made it clear I've no problem with cool whatsoever. I merely pointed out the abundance of it in D3's roster. And part of that cool is...shoe-horning a more acceptable, established cool. Dual-pistols to dual-crossbows. Let's assume there is some magic involved in the D3 crossbow. Then why have strings or bolts at all? Why even shape it like a crossbow? Why not just *make them wands*?

And don't ANY of you dare accuse me of being nitpicky. You might as well accuse the dirt of being old. I won't even be insulted by it.

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rpgfiend wrote:

I don't care what people say about any game.I'm one of the few people that could care less what people say about a video game.My life hasn't become that shallow and pathetic yet.

...You have given evidence here to the contrary.

Notably, in giving evidence here.

I think being honest with yourself is important. I care enough to write this stuff, to see what others think. We care -- I speak for others here, again going on the QED. If you want to contribute meaningfully, then I strongly suggest you admit you're already a part of that 'We' and discard what appears to be a woefully unjustified stance of apathy.

Also, hi. Welcome to the thread and the discussion. I look forward to whatever else you might have to add. :)

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

This response is for Tagek, as I was answering him directly with my silly 'what-if'; the rest of you having a go at it, stop piggybacking on his work. His consistent queries, always civil and rational, earned that effort from me, even if it was done somewhat tongue-in-cheek and on the fly. Seriously.

Like I said, Tagek, you KINDA put me on the spot, it was like, 11pm and...hey, that's excuse/reason enough for me babbling a flawed suggestion, at which the D3 fans here had a nice poke and giggle. WD and the Fifth could share the ranged, but whatever. I'd probably rename it from Witch Doctor if I were to give more weight to the ranged. But since I didn't clarify that, allow me to here: you asked what I wanted to see, and I didn't answer sufficiently. Because the real answer is a lot more intensive than simply 'the fifth class changed.' The real answer is, 'I'd like to see five new classes.' But as you well know, I was still willing to overlook the blandness of the new roster for the skill system, etc., etc.

I *did* preface my speculation sufficiently with the usual caveats, didn't I? Blizzard had years to come up with some nice, original ideas and I maintain they failed for the most part. I also maintain they knew it wouldn't be necessary to introduce much new. After all, you appear happy with what they've done.

But let me point out, again, the jumps: D1 to D2, you had exactly zero repeat classes. SO many interesting and new methods of play came with D2; the shift from D1 to D2 was absolutely paradigmatic. Revolutionary. D2 to D3, you can say the evolution was more subtle, more to do with the mechanics behind the classes, but the truth remains that there are a lot more recycled (or updated, if you want to be generous) character concepts in D3 than in D2. That's part of my gripe. It's just not as overwhelmingly innovative as from D1 to D2. Given the change in core design teams, none of us are surprised at this.

The dual crossbow thing is fairly irrational of me given, yes, strafe, fireballs, summons, etc. I would have NO problem with the crossbow deal *if* they stipulated the weapon didn't fire actual bolts but instead used pure magic or the like. That covers that. But instead you're left making this crap up for yourself as Blizzard simply say 'hey THIS is cool!' and let the fans lap it up. I mean, they're already referring to one of the crossbow skills as a rocket launcher. Can you take that seriously?

http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/blizzard-on-the-demon-hunters-rockets

Just found this. It doesn't begin to satisfy me at all. Sure, he mentions alchemy and magic, but this is a response to a query, not an offering up-front. It is, in short, a plug for a hole that I think Blizzard know most people won't care about. Even I saw those skills and snickered; what a sign of the times.

That Bashiok fellow sure knows how to dance. I presume it's a large part of his job.

So I see strafe as magically, supernatural. I can handle that. It certainly simulates a real-life machine gun (I thought it looked awesome!) and, somewhat retroactively, I can imagine Bloom's Legolas doing something similar with enchanted gear, etc. But the faux-tech of dual crossbows, the usage of the word 'rocket' when no actual combustion process or gundpowder is used? The twits should have just sucked it up like ArenaNet did and introduced basic firearms. Or some innovation between magic and tech to create arcane crossbows.

And don't ANY of you dare accuse me of being nitpicky. You might as well accuse the dirt of being old. I won't even be insulted by it.

I see your point with the D1-D2 jump, but you have to keep in mind that D2 went from shallow characters to more branched off characters that aren't just stereotypes that do nothing other than 'shoot from range', 'cast a spell' and 'wack an enemy'.

It's impossible for blizzard to come up with the same type of jump, simply because every concept that's actually doable in an arpg has pretty much been done.
You really can't blame blizzard for this, it's just the way things work. I know you don't need an analogy at all, but I'm still going to attempt to make one:

Let's say you invent the wheel, and everyone on the planet praises your name. Then you build the car and everyone is like 'Wow, he took the wheel, and applied it to make it something revolutionary!'. Later on you make a better car. You gave it your best shot, and it's a great car, but people will never be as impressed by it as when you first invented the wheel or the car.

I still agree on the demon hunter thing, it's silly.
But it's nothing to bust your nuts over (is that the right expression? /shrug).
Also yes, you should read some more of his posts, he's quite a 'boss' if you will. :P

As for the term 'rockets', it's just a way to describe the type of projectile. You can call it a missile or even a giant flying penis-like object.
In the end it's just terminology that best describes it's function to most people.

I don't think they shouldve gone the gun route.
Too many games are doing the whole 'steampunk' thing these days, and I also think that guns feel very lame in general. (For example, I can see a monk being so awesome that he dodges an arrow, but no one's going to tell me he's so fast that he can dodge bullets.)


EDIT: You're nitpicky. /trollmode.

No, they SHOULD have gone the wand route. For serious wandslinging, I probably would have stuck even with that game. You want proof I'm easily swayed by cool? I loooooved Equilibrium. That, but with wands? Oh man. Hell yeah. Bugger Demon Hunter, something like the D and D's artificer or tinkerer would have been *awesome*.

Also, I liked the analogy. EXCEPT...

Blizzard didn't invent the wheel (metaphorically) with Diablo. They invented the bicycle. Composite, existing elements (gears, wheels, seat, etc) brought together to create something unique and not truly superseded to this day. Diablo 2? Motorcycle. Same concept, just a LOT faster, louder, and more likely to attract easily impressed girls. Diablo 3? *A new model of motorcycle.* I don't really like the design, I think they've lost a lot of the things that made the classic motorcycle such a fun, interesting ride, and in short, I'm going to leave it to the youngsters who just *don't know* better. Oh, there were some GREAT ideas in the works, but the ones that I felt made Blizzard the cutting edge of engineer and design were scrapped. Such a pity.

That's entirely how I felt about D3 the day before I found Path of Exile.

The day after, that despondency was replaced by a sense of hope that another motorcycle company out there had known *exactly* what I loved about the D2 model and then worked from there, rather than treating so much of the D2 as a redundant 'mistake' due to the way some riders abused the hell out of it.

...It's sort of dangerous to throw an analogy at me.

EDIT: asshole. /smirk

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

No, they SHOULD have gone the wand route. For serious wandslinging, I probably would have stuck even with that game. You want proof I'm easily swayed by cool? I loooooved Equilibrium. That, but with wands? Oh man. Hell yeah. Bugger Demon Hunter, something like the D and D's artificer or tinkerer would have been *awesome*.

Also, I liked the analogy. EXCEPT...

Blizzard didn't invent the wheel (metaphorically) with Diablo. They invented the bicycle. Composite, existing elements (gears, wheels, seat, etc) brought together to create something unique and not truly superseded to this day. Diablo 2? Motorcycle. Same concept, just a LOT faster, louder, and more likely to attract easily impressed girls. Diablo 3? *A new model of motorcycle.* I don't really like the design, I think they've lost a lot of the things that made the classic motorcycle such a fun, interesting ride, and in short, I'm going to leave it to the youngsters who just *don't know* better. Oh, there were some GREAT ideas in the works, but the ones that I felt made Blizzard the cutting edge of engineer and design were scrapped. Such a pity.

That's entirely how I felt about D3 the day before I found Path of Exile.

The day after, that despondency was replaced by a sense of hope that another motorcycle company out there had known *exactly* what I loved about the D2 model and then worked from there, rather than treating so much of the D2 as a redundant 'mistake' due to the way some riders abused the hell out of it.

...It's sort of dangerous to throw an analogy at me.

EDIT: asshole. /smirk

Well it was just an analogy. I couldn't think of anything with enough parts to it. Also, young people do know better, because we have low hanging pants and we talk in much more l33t and bro-like ways than you old people ever did.

Also, weren't you a LITTLE disappointed, just a little, when you saw that POE's classes were pretty generic and same-ish just as diablo 3's are according to you?

(See what I did there? :P)

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

No, they SHOULD have gone the wand route. For serious wandslinging, I probably would have stuck even with that game. You want proof I'm easily swayed by cool? I loooooved Equilibrium. That, but with wands? Oh man. Hell yeah. Bugger Demon Hunter, something like the D and D's artificer or tinkerer would have been *awesome*.

Also, I liked the analogy. EXCEPT...

Blizzard didn't invent the wheel (metaphorically) with Diablo. They invented the bicycle. Composite, existing elements (gears, wheels, seat, etc) brought together to create something unique and not truly superseded to this day. Diablo 2? Motorcycle. Same concept, just a LOT faster, louder, and more likely to attract easily impressed girls. Diablo 3? *A new model of motorcycle.* I don't really like the design, I think they've lost a lot of the things that made the classic motorcycle such a fun, interesting ride, and in short, I'm going to leave it to the youngsters who just *don't know* better. Oh, there were some GREAT ideas in the works, but the ones that I felt made Blizzard the cutting edge of engineer and design were scrapped. Such a pity.

That's entirely how I felt about D3 the day before I found Path of Exile.

The day after, that despondency was replaced by a sense of hope that another motorcycle company out there had known *exactly* what I loved about the D2 model and then worked from there, rather than treating so much of the D2 as a redundant 'mistake' due to the way some riders abused the hell out of it.

...It's sort of dangerous to throw an analogy at me.

EDIT: asshole. /smirk

Equilibrium was full of swag.

Oh, clever you. And not at all. I saw templates with just enough familiarity to play host to my many crazy ideas. So far, they've been performing in those roles beautifully. I can't wait for aesthetic stuff on the shop to differentiate between them even more. My Dagger Witch, Staff Witch and Cold Witch all need some serious cosmetic love. My casting Duelist and Charan couldn't be more different in behaviour -- sooner or later, their appearances will match that.

I understood immediately that the 'blandness' of the classes was the invitation to spend on the cash shop. As far as f2p models go, I found it very agreeable. Very.

...Thankfully I have all these points GGG threw at me to spend, when all I really wanted was to make my own item and a signed tshirt.

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

No, they SHOULD have gone the wand route. For serious wandslinging, I probably would have stuck even with that game. You want proof I'm easily swayed by cool? I loooooved Equilibrium. That, but with wands? Oh man. Hell yeah. Bugger Demon Hunter, something like the D and D's artificer or tinkerer would have been *awesome*.

Also, I liked the analogy. EXCEPT...

Blizzard didn't invent the wheel (metaphorically) with Diablo. They invented the bicycle. Composite, existing elements (gears, wheels, seat, etc) brought together to create something unique and not truly superseded to this day. Diablo 2? Motorcycle. Same concept, just a LOT faster, louder, and more likely to attract easily impressed girls. Diablo 3? *A new model of motorcycle.* I don't really like the design, I think they've lost a lot of the things that made the classic motorcycle such a fun, interesting ride, and in short, I'm going to leave it to the youngsters who just *don't know* better. Oh, there were some GREAT ideas in the works, but the ones that I felt made Blizzard the cutting edge of engineer and design were scrapped. Such a pity.

That's entirely how I felt about D3 the day before I found Path of Exile.

The day after, that despondency was replaced by a sense of hope that another motorcycle company out there had known *exactly* what I loved about the D2 model and then worked from there, rather than treating so much of the D2 as a redundant 'mistake' due to the way some riders abused the hell out of it.

...It's sort of dangerous to throw an analogy at me.

EDIT: asshole. /smirk

Excuse me but Diablo has a story and that story has a certain world, chars and tribes, Blizzard can't put a Lizardman for example in Diablo without a story of why and how he is exists in Diablo world.