major end game design flaw (map drop rates / currency dump)

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reimur wrote:

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Tombstoned wrote:

"but we're getting to a point where the currency dump is too much, and the return rate is practically non existent"

and that is what you call a poor investment decision. do yourselves a favor and make better choices. the improvement in drop rate on maps, even when doubled, is statistically insignificant. thank you, basic math. they want end game to have variety, and you don't get variety by making one affix so strong that it is the only one people will use. it defeats their stated end game design intent.

you know what they say about trying the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results, don't you? or how about the one about what sort of person is soon parted from his money? you are trying to run level 70 something content at level 80+ in a free game that is not even completed yet. i have a novel idea. play the game because it is fun. if it is not fun, play it anyways or go away. there are plenty of games out there for loot whores, go try to ruin them

fucking fanboys

lol Dropping a grand on a free game then you call someone a else a fanboy. I need some popcorn for this.

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Starklen wrote:

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Sikab wrote:

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Starklen wrote:

To add something at least slightly constructive to this, I think the overall map drop rate is actually fine. I take extreme issue with the variance in drop rates and the fact that low level maps can drop in very high level maps. For example, I ran 14 75+ maps before I saw a shipyard drop. In that time, I saw a countless number of level 68s that were/are more or less worthless for xp at 90+. I probably ended up selling 90% of them just to buy currency that would better my chances of getting productive maps to drop in that maps that could drop them. One possible solution is to adjust it so that you cannot receive a map drop that is more than 3 levels lower than the current map you are running. Combine that with a mild reduction in variance (while keeping the overall average drop rate the same) and it would alleviate a lot of the problems. I feel like something of this nature would maintain the random spirit of the game while not making the final levels painfully pointless.

ign: CAPTAIN_CAPSLOCK

High lvl Map drop rates is not fine...

no1 cares about lvl66 maps once above lvl80.

I'm level 91. I've got a pretty good understanding of map drop rates.

So at lvl 91 what lvl maps are you constantly doing now? I am at 80 and I am around the 69 Maps zone.

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Tombstoned wrote:

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reimur wrote:

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Tombstoned wrote:

this has nothing to do with the players. it is simple math. i notice you could not counter a single point i made. call me names all you want, you are only proving what the real problem is here...that being the very limited intellect and basic math skills you have demonstrated.

you're only spouting off nonsense. there's nothing to debate

you are right. there is nothing to debate. you said yourself that the return rate is nonexistent. you know that you are making stupid choices in how you spend your currency. basic math and common sense says you cannot possibly profit from it, yet you continue. you can read on this website that they intend to have a great deal of variety in end game, and making one affix stronger than the rest will make people only use that affix. it defeats the purpose of making a variable end game if everyone does the same thing anyways. that is also common sense. this is not a design flaw, it is a difference in design philosophy. you expect to be able to do something different than they intend you to be able to do. that is all

By your logic they should stop mapping. Right now, the only way to get xp at lvl 85-90+ are maps, and since they are the endgame, they should bring some other reward. Sure, they do, like "fuck yes i got a gcp drop, oh wait, i had to use 15 chaos to roll this map." Then you get no maps from the map. Now this happens a bit more, and are forced to do lvl 66-69 maps. Congratulations, you just wasted 50 chaos, got 0,x%xp and are down to maps that give you just stupidly low xp while you have to use 15 chaos anyway to get the best rolls, which are always the same thing, making everything more boring. Then you make your way back to the lvl 72+ maps, dropping back to lvl 66-69 a few times while wasting 500+ chaos orbs. Then you get some high level maps, like 74s or something, roll them all with 30+ chaos each and possibly some exalts, and then, you get only low lvl maps from all of them, maybe even none, all that while getting some really low amount of exp. Now you repeat all of that, wanting to lvl, wasting more orbs cause of flawed design, and having to farm low lvl bosses, also cause of flawed design. In the end, the end game is flawed, cause you got to do it if you want to get xp, but you will have to waste an insane amount of currency on high lvl maps, hoping to get more high lvl maps. Then you don´t get shit and have to get back up. And you have to use a huge amount of currency while doing that anyway. Endgame right now is a bad place to farm, aside from lvl 66/67 blue maps, and the only purpose is xp.

I´d like to add all of this is insanely rng dependant, and if it screws you, you have to pay. In a fuckload of orbs. Like it wasnt enough you have to use a fuckload of orbs anyway.

The only thing wrong with high level map drop rates I can think of, is that there should be a floor to level of maps dropped. -2 perhaps, or -3. So a level 75 map would never drop below 72 or 73 maps, and so on.

All I see going on here though is a bunch of people trying to get past their 90's in a pretty new game, with a map progression that ends at 77 anyway and hence gives very little xp past the mid-90's.

Try and grasp this. The game may have had a soft release, but it is in beta. We will get more content. Surely you will whine about 80-90 maps being rarer at that point, but in general things will improve.

And if you still just want to push past the 90's right now, fine. Just shut up about it and have some patience until you get more content.

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Cruxation wrote:

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reimur wrote:

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Tombstoned wrote:

"but we're getting to a point where the currency dump is too much, and the return rate is practically non existent"

and that is what you call a poor investment decision. do yourselves a favor and make better choices. the improvement in drop rate on maps, even when doubled, is statistically insignificant. thank you, basic math. they want end game to have variety, and you don't get variety by making one affix so strong that it is the only one people will use. it defeats their stated end game design intent.

you know what they say about trying the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results, don't you? or how about the one about what sort of person is soon parted from his money? you are trying to run level 70 something content at level 80+ in a free game that is not even completed yet. i have a novel idea. play the game because it is fun. if it is not fun, play it anyways or go away. there are plenty of games out there for loot whores, go try to ruin them

fucking fanboys

lol Dropping a grand on a free game then you call someone a else a fanboy. I need some popcorn for this.

Also this, just priceless. :D

Nothing wrong with map drops.

79 Witch and I still chain maps on my own. (solo, without buying any)

If you can't handle map system, well don't play endgame or reroll your character.

The map mechanics are actually pretty mighty fine.

If you need proof of what I'm saying, I'll gladly run you a map on livestream, I can also show you the atziri and the 30+ uniques I've dropped.

No maps ? Run a zone solo until you drop one.
Can't run solo on maps 8 levels under you ? You failed your build.
Don't have time to run solo to pick up maps ?
Well tough luck boi :]

Learn to play, don't play endgame, or stop complaining plix :]

Find a team, run your maps with your team, have fun, enjoy what is supposed to be a -game-.

Cheers :] Farspire

twitch.tv/jdtuggey

NB: Currency dumps are necessary if you don't want everyone to have 4230864 chaos and 274 gcp in a month. Also it is necessary for your shiny Midnight Bargain or Death's Harp to not trade for those 423975435 chaos orb. If they would do it that way, in a year it would take you months to farm for enough currencies to buy those.

Also, remember GGG are offering you this game for free. They've put insane work and shared their love for action RPGs with you. Pushing them to release content/change current content will pressure them and will lower the overall quality of their work.

Please be respectful with them, you aren't dealing with Blizzard here :]

NB2: I feel actually pretty privileged to be able to run maps this well so early. I would've expected to hit my head against a learning curve, but I didn't, transition went smoothly, and perfectly. Grats to GGG for putting together an infinite end-game system that actually works, challenges you randomly, and doesn't feed you everything all cooked and ready.

I'm glad I have to work for my gear. It values my skills and allows me to develop them further.


NB3: I sincerely hope the map system doesn't get nerfed. It would devalue the work I've put in it so far. I'm pretty sure all the top leaderboard players think that way as well.

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Tugzor wrote:

79 Witch and I still chain maps on my own. (solo, without buying any)

You don't understand the complaint at all.

This is not about not staying in maps.

This is about not staying in high lvl maps despite spending ridiculous quantities of currency on them.

At lvl 88+, maps below 73 are completely worthless. So you spend and spend and spend on the high lvl maps you do get to ensure you do good maps.

And much of the time all that spending is for nothing and you fall back to utterly worthless 70-71 maps that you still have to spend on to try to crawl back to real maps again.

The last 17 high level maps I've done on my lvl 89 have not dropped a map of equal or greater level, despite spending a fortune in chisels/alchs/chaos, and I'm back down to 70s. So I'm playing my alt, because fuck that shit.

Oh well, considering you are lvl 89, I wouldn't say you are doing too bad.

Sadly, 66 maps are worthless for me too. I looted vaults of atziri on a lvl 67 map though :]

So yes, worthless for exp, but what do you expect to be worth any exp at lvl 89 ?

Feel special to be 89, don't complain that you can't go higher, I just believe you lack the patience/will to do so.

(And no, sorry, I haven't read through 14 pages of text before posting my argument, just wanted to post my opinions about the situation. It seems fine to me, and lvl 75+ maps are rare and special, as they should be.)

And if high level maps would be more readily available, there would be nothing special to the fact you are 89. Like I said, enjoy it lol. I know I would :]

Maps that drops in maps should never be lower level than the map they drop in. That would make things less frustrating, IMO. Grinding is only fun when there is progress and when you can feel rewarded. Without that it will feel pointless instead.

But the game is still in beta and things will probably change. New ideas will be tried. Numbers and ratios will be tweaked and tuned. I think the way this works right now is not written in stone. And the final endgame will be more fun...

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Tugzor wrote:

Nothing wrong with map drops.

79 Witch and I still chain maps on my own. (solo, without buying any)

If you can't handle map system, well don't play endgame or reroll your character.

The map mechanics are actually pretty mighty fine.

If you need proof of what I'm saying, I'll gladly run you a map on livestream, I can also show you the atziri and the 30+ uniques I've dropped.

No maps ? Run a zone solo until you drop one.


Learn to play, don't play endgame, or stop complaining plix :]

what l2p has to do with RNG? man you fanboys are the worster ones (close enough with the d3 fanboys sorry)

ok i will tell you a true story

180mil exp at solo docks, killing every fu**g mob, skipping NOTHING (not even multi proj,immune to curse voids) and i have YET to see a MAP drop (A N Y level)....

now if you CANT' see that the endgame is a HUGE Grindfest and i mean HUGE grindfest to have ACCESS (JUST ACCESS!!) to end game content...if this ISNT' sloppy design for endgame...i really cant' imagine what it is.....

end game is a grindfest JUST to access the end game area....if you find that fine...well go check the destiny of every other grindfest game (MMO And Non-MMO) in the EU audience...just go see...

we are not chinese peoples here (i am not insulting anyone, chinese players love to grind it is fine for them)....

but please please stop saying that end game is right....you just make you look

a)fanboy
b)fanboy
c) st**d
d) fanboy

PoE is the Path of Grindfest in this state

ps. i take 3-3.5mil exp per dock run