change penetration support gems, they are useless now

Post 3.0,

I see many skills getting pen on them, I see rares (3.3 incoming too) having pen on them. I see vaal skills ignoring pen on monsters. I see the skill tree getting a buff to pen values. I see uniques with a lot of pen. I see ascandencies with pen on them.

Knowing the average boss get 40% resistance to an element, what is the purpose of the pen support now that there is pen pretty much everywhere?

Maybe penetration supports should get changed to " target get 37% inc damage taken" with said element instead of penetration.

There is 0 reason to use the support gems anymore.

It's a percentage and it can go into negative resistances so it's always good.
37% more damage is like the worst case scenario as they are right now if i have understood things correctly.

Penetration works the best when you need it the most. I think increased critical strikes support is in a worse spot. Everytime i try to use it in path of building it is outclassed by generic %more damage supports regardless of build.

Just my opinion of the matter.

Cold Pen Support gem at level 20 penetrates 37% of cold resistance.

https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Cold_Penetration_Support

To boss with %40 cold res you hit 60 cold damage instead of 100

With the cold pen sup gem you hit 97.

Mid school level "ratio and rate" knowledge says that 97*100/60 ~= 161 which is %61 dmg increase.

Am I wrong? Am I missing something? Not being sarcastic I mean it I when I ask.

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pphnx wrote:

Am I wrong? Am I missing something? Not being sarcastic I mean it I when I ask.

The question is not if Pen support gem is effective on its own without exterior source of pen but more about the fact you have so much pen on tree and items that there is no need to waste a gems slot for it.

Let s take a cold caster build.

-dual wield sambar shaper > 32% pen (or 20% for shaped wands)
- tree> heart of ice 3% pen (soon buffed?)
-celestial judgment 2% pen (soon buffed)


we already have with that a base of :37% cold pen with dual sambar or 25% cold pen with dual wands.

Now we could add:
The Pandemonius
20% pen vs chilled .

meaning a 57% cold pen using those items+tree.

Now let s take elementalist... Mastermind of Discord Damage Penetrates 25% Cold Resistance while affected by Herald of Ice.

IT raise our pen to 82% or 62% without The Pandemonius.



Ps: in case of cold support I forgot you can use cwtd+frost bomb too for a maximum of 102% pen with dual wield+pandemonium... WITHOUT THE SUPPORT)

and Wise Oak - the strongest yet surprisingly cheap flask one can get

yep. the penetration proliferation (i seriously expect gem like this soon) is out of hand and makes a) ele builds CLEARLY superiour to phys builds (as if it wasnt the case already) b) invalidates existing mechanics just for the sake of replacing them with something shiny c) makes gearing even more streamlined

but you know what will happen - support gems will simply get double the numbers and everyone will call it a day

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Head_Less wrote:

Ps: in case of cold support I forgot you can use cwtd+frost bomb too for a maximum of 102% pen with dual wield+pandemonium... WITHOUT THE SUPPORT)

3.3 Patch notes:

- All map monsters now have 100% elemental resistances

Or make global nerf to penetration, reduce effectiveness vs bosses (in pvp too!) and increase enemies resistances.

Resistances on enemies are complete joke.

It would also buff physical damage (and bleed) over elemental damage which dominates now.

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Funkjoker wrote:

"

Head_Less wrote:

Ps: in case of cold support I forgot you can use cwtd+frost bomb too for a maximum of 102% pen with dual wield+pandemonium... WITHOUT THE SUPPORT)

3.3 Patch notes:

- All map monsters now have 100% elemental resistances

That wouldn't be anything new. Back when I started playing (1.0) every monster in the game had 75% in at least one resistance, all the way from Twilight Strand in Normal. They removed them later because physical damage was too strong in comparison to elements.


Edit: typo

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pphnx wrote:

Cold Pen Support gem at level 20 penetrates 37% of cold resistance.

https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Cold_Penetration_Support

To boss with %40 cold res you hit 60 cold damage instead of 100

With the cold pen sup gem you hit 97.

Mid school level "ratio and rate" knowledge says that 97*100/60 ~= 161 which is %61 dmg increase.

Am I wrong? Am I missing something? Not being sarcastic I mean it I when I ask.

The argument is that there are so many other ways to get lower resists/penetration now that it's better to just put another "more damage" gem in your skill instead of the appropriate penetration gem.

Case in point, I have a Molten Strike Chieftain with:
- Ngamahu's Flame: 20% penetration
- Ngamahu, Flame's Advance: 10%
- Lava Lash: 8%
- Primeval Force: 5%

That's a total of 43% penetration already from gear and passives alone. Against a boss with 40% resist, a level 20 Fire Pen gem would get me from an effective -3% to -40%, a 36% increase. EDwA, Added Fire and Elemental Focus already give significantly bigger damage boosts, and that's not counting other possible sources of reduced resists/penetration such as Flammability or Wise Oak.

Might as well just remove all the pen gems we have now. After 3.3 we will all be using Combust, no need any other pen or elements