Chop Finale .... ROLL DAY~

Pretty much. If we could have even just 3x the HC player base we do now, that would go a long way toward helping the economy. Deaths take their toll on both the economy and the player base, with attrition in that some players resign themselves to the Default league instead upon death of a particularly well developed character.

"

Pyrocon wrote:

Pretty much. If we could have even just 3x the HC player base we do now, that would go a long way toward helping the economy. Deaths take their toll on both the economy and the player base, with attrition in that some players resign themselves to the Default league instead upon death of a particularly well developed character.

id guess the idea there is to stem the bleeding from HC rage quits lol.

at the same time will have to be taken into account in the default economy some how. me for example. when i made my decision within 1-2 hours could have brought my whole net worth into a total different league, which was considerable, but chose not to for logical reasons to better my account. again, the forex thing.

lots of deep things in poe, lots people dont even know exist, but they will exist if game goes big because some very sly players that are very smart will be playing.

edit: arent constructive threads fun!

Personally I don't think it's an issue that people will sometimes resign themselves to the default league after death. I think just as many people would quit playing when their Mara with the 180% ED weapons died in HC. I play in HC, and the main reason I'm willing to commit is that I know the character just doesn't go up in smoke if they die-- even though I'm not likely to continue playing them after they get knocked into the default league.

I also know that 4+ linked sockets continue to be worth more DPS... although it also depends on the spec, melee seem to have a greater quantity of powerful support gems than casters do. I still think that it should be possible to have a "spend X orbs, go from N links to N+1 links" arrangement, even if it would need to be hundreds of orbs for the 5th link. Although Chop's suggestion that fusing could never unfuse links is also good (that's how I expected them to work when I first tried them myself).

Finally, the "scouring 3.0" orbs have a lot of wiggle room as to how they work to find the balance between something that the average player might see occasionally, feels good to use, and a handful of them don't create perfect items, or at least flood the market with near-perfect items. I didn't go into it in my original post to try and keep it concise, but here are some options:

1) Magic items roll mods as though they are maybe 20% lower itemlevel-- this prevents the cruel mod from showing up with transmute spam.
2) It always copies in the minimum value for the tier of mod that it absorbs.
3) It absorbs a random mod-- meaning that trying to pull cruel off a rare is chancy unless there are other orbs that can deconstruct a rare.
*) If you wanted to make these orbs really rare, you could let them steal mods off unique items (destroying the unique of course), which might lead to crafting very unique, valuable or exotic items. For instance Voll's charge on crit mod on a level 60 pure int armor (if this was done, the awesome unique mods would also need to apply the drawback, if any-- in Voll's case the 50% reduced max mana).

With just 2 and 3, it means that a perfect item crafted with scouring 3.0 would have 26% increased attack speed with 165% increased damage. Very good to be sure, but at the expense of 3 exalted level orbs with someone who has found the very best mods for them (at the expense dozens of transmute orbs)-- how good should that item be?

More options could include:
4) It always applies the minimum tier of that kind of mod, and repeated applications improve the tier.

This lets you bump bloodthristy to cruel, at the expense of one orb, but it would take 6 to get a cruel from scratch. However it also means it's easier to load the orb up with the right mod. However, you could make this kind of orb more common, but have it drop with the type of mod it applies already baked in. As it would like look if this methodology was applied to an augmentation orb: "Augmentation Orb: Damage Scaling; increases the tier of damage scaling on one item, to the minimum value of the next tier" Once you got to cruel you would want to apply... uh, Divine Orbs I think? to reroll the % from the minimum to something better.


I think there are a lot of options to make crafting more reliable without causing the market to be flooded like some people seem to fear would happen. It's really important that currency items have a functional value, because right now they are like paper money. With no with no government saying our currency orbs have value, eventually people will figure out that alch/chaos/etc. are generally so unreliable as to have very little trading value, so players will revert to trading rares for rares or cash rather than using the provided currency.

i dont think people would accept the actual 100% guaranteed roll numbers.

alch/chaos/exalted work right now because the odd values are hidden and the user is never the wiser.

they are balanced around millions and millions of rolls to generate super high end results.

the average person would expect 10's or in some cases 100's.

this is why i keep trying to come up with suggestions for mid range "decent" usable rare rolls. that is something that is attainable. the word "godly" just needs to be left alone cause people use it in terms of it being possible for all, which it wont be.

mid range is what needs balance, the high end is fine. and low end is fine.

and sadly, i lump 6L into that super high end, and i think ggg does the same.

work on 4-5L suggestions and mid range 150%ed / 70%sd suggestions. i feel those are more constructive atm.

things that provide 100% such as scour 3.0 will come with extreme cost, and not a cost to other systems but currency rarity cost.

for example you compare it to 3 exalted orbs, in reality it will compare to more like 20-30 or even more.

this goes down same road as mirror, difference being you actually have to put the work in to create the item here, but is still extremely strong in what it could do. it puts a time frame on something that would otherwise be based completely on odds and luck.

Nerfing transmutation isn't the solution imo, because that will remove the entire magic -> rare and all its support. IE, regal will become useless and most of the other magic affecting orbs as well. Rolling 1 or 2 super high mods is the whole point of going the regal route, and it's already challenging enough as it is ( usually after regal you have to throw it into the bin ).

Another problem is that most of the solutions for scourge 3.0 involves either a lesser novel in the orb description, or a lot of people being clueless on how they actually work.

you know, to put it into my perspective. id actually like current mirror to take your proposed scour 3.0 use. lol. name even fits.

mirror takes 1 selected mod from any non unique item and applies it to target non unique item that doesnt already have the mod.

thats about the power level of that orb.

I don't really understand why this is discussed over and over and over. Every time it leads to a) "make orbs 100%" ,b) "make new orbs" or "don't make any change, it will destroy the economy".
There is a simple to implement solution that I suggested already - keep the orbs as they are, add recipes to add/remove/modify items _without_ destroying them. Something like that could be implemented over weekend, the only hard part would be tweaking the recipes, because they need to be quite costly to prevent inflation of godly items.

"

lazyman75 wrote:

I don't really understand why this is discussed over and over and over. Every time it leads to a) "make orbs 100%" ,b) "make new orbs" or "don't make any change, it will destroy the economy".
There is a simple to implement solution that I suggested already - keep the orbs as they are, add recipes to add/remove/modify items _without_ destroying them. Something like that could be implemented over weekend, the only hard part would be tweaking the recipes, because they need to be quite costly to prevent inflation of godly items.

because constructive debate and discussion brings about further ideas to debate and discuss.

when you come into a thread and down the discussion then right after offer your solution as if its the only choice is not a very good approach.

just offer your imput on the topic and debate.

"

"lazyman75 wrote:

I suggested already - keep the orbs as they are, add recipes to add/remove/modify items _without_ destroying them. Something like that could be implemented over weekend, the only hard part would be tweaking the recipes, because they need to be quite costly to prevent inflation of godly items.

good post, sounds interesting, elaborate more?

Sorry, I didn't mean to sounds harsh, brainstorming is always useful, but I think these discussions are just going in circles, always reaching the same conclusion, so I wanted to bring something new to the table.

About the idea - it's very simple and was implemented in many D2 mods to great success.
On top of the random chance orbs there would be number of vendor recipes, where you'd trade the item you want modified + other ingredients (orbs, quality gems, specific rares, uniques, ... ) and as a result, you'd get your item back with "something" specific to the recipes done to the item.
For example:
trade your weapon + 20% quality red gem -> you weapon (same mods, everything the same) + guaranteed +1%-2% ED added.
This would allow improving your existing gear and if the recipes are done correctly, at high levels you won't use low orbs (alch/chaos) directly, but for the recipes or for creating ingredients for recipes.

This would keep the orb economy strong and provide huge boost to rare/magic/unique trading, if they'd be part of the recipes.
Of course, this system would ultimately lead to really godly items in the end, but .. that's the goal of every ARPG, isn't it?
Such system would allow almost unlimited tweaking, limited only by creativity of GGG devs.

Generally I agree that the item balance issues are primarily important in the mid-range, since that's where the balance concerns are now (I think the rarity of uniques is a different issue, but I'm not going to make a big deal about it in this thread which seems to be more currency-based). I mean, part of the reason the game is so easy (HC players seem to die to lag and crashes more than all natural causes combined), is because items are so unreliable, that they can't really tune the monsters up enough that for an average character it would be challenge, but also a zero stash HC character would be able to progress. ie. characters are maybe 25-30% as effective as they could be without items stashed for them, and even characters with decent weapons stashed away are likely to be more along the lines of 50-60%.

For instance, my Mara spent ~10-15 levels never seeing a 2h weapon better than the blue I was using, then suddenly a 1h weapon drops that does something like 70% more DPS than my 2h weapon, and was one handed.