Chop Finale .... ROLL DAY~

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Xine wrote:

2) Unspent currency is worth more than spent currency. Spending your currency in this game on items will without fail reduce your current worth by a HUGE margin.

This is a requirement. Otherwise, inflation would run rampant. Every orb each person finds, drops the value of every other orb on the servers. As Chop said earlier, Items are undervalued and orbs are over valued. If the scales even out, than a super rare item will be worth exactly how many orbs it would take to make it. At that point a person with enough currency chooses to either buy the item or roll it themselves. Somehow though, people need to be convinced to use orbs. If the community as a whole is using orbs at the same rate that they are finding them, then it will become stable.

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Xine wrote:

Chop dropped his worth by well over 1000%.

This bugs me mathematically. His worth cannot drop by more than 100% Furthermore, his ability to generate worth (characters and knowledge of trading/game economy) are still intact. I would wager ~90-95% would be more plausible.

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Gafgarion wrote:

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Xine wrote:

Chop dropped his worth by well over 1000%.

This bugs me mathematically. His worth cannot drop by more than 100% Furthermore, his ability to generate worth (characters and knowledge of trading/game economy) are still intact. I would wager ~90-95% would be more plausible.

im incredibly sorry, its late, and goofy, but chop dropped and rolled is to good not to post at this point in time. works in so many ways.

maybe its the 12+ hours of stress from tornadoes all day, my thoughts with those families that lost today throughout the south/eastern usa.

sorry for side track =P.

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lazyman75 wrote:

I hate randomness, i don't want randomness, I want steady progress towards the godly items. I want to farm a lot, I want to trade a lot to get closer to the end, but I definitely don't want to play against the random generator with chance like 1 in 100 millions.

best i would hope for is some sort of system close to "infusing orb" with caps set on mods it can work with. 0-godly isnt going to happen im 99% sure. we are trying fairly hard to get something implemented in the mid/high mid range tho.

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gafgarion wrote:

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xine wrote:

2) Unspent currency is worth more than spent currency. Spending your currency in this game on items will without fail reduce your current worth by a HUGE margin.

This is a requirement. Otherwise, inflation would run rampant. Every orb each person finds, drops the value of every other orb on the servers. As Chop said earlier, Items are undervalued and orbs are over valued. If the scales even out, than a super rare item will be worth exactly how many orbs it would take to make it. At that point a person with enough currency chooses to either buy the item or roll it themselves. Somehow though, people need to be convinced to use orbs. If the community as a whole is using orbs at the same rate that they are finding them, then it will become stable.

my big concern over this is when people finally understand what a solid items worth is. how will you go about buying it when the currency doesnt hold enough value vs the item. much like xines "1)".

come release, i doubt id every sell a a high end (not even godly) item for current orbs (aside from mirror/fusing i also thing fusing power level is out of whack. i havent touched on that yet), period. i dont see the value being there in terms of use, and i dont think others will either as time passes on.

i started doing it about 3-4 weeks ago before i had a definite time for my house. i invested lots of currency into solid rares , 5l non hybrid chests, and weapons. some of you may even remember my spam in chat. none of the orbs really compare to a solid item atm or anywhere near for that matter. the only 1 close is exalted and it is still extremely overvalued, its rarity is also kinda off i think, but i figure it has to be for it to try and hold value from that angle.

maybe people will sell a solid item for 200-300 chaos, if they can find a person that has enough time to farm that many and doesnt already have the item.

usability + rarity = demand = value

something has to change in 1 of the first 2. either less rare same usability. or more usability same rarity. right now its a pretty big imbalance.

also

i dont think many people understand trading up / down. thats a pretty big 1 ive noticed.

long day, ima go pass out.

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Gafgarion wrote:

This is a requirement. Otherwise, inflation would run rampant. Every orb each person finds, drops the value of every other orb on the servers. As Chop said earlier, Items are undervalued and orbs are over valued. If the scales even out, than a super rare item will be worth exactly how many orbs it would take to make it. At that point a person with enough currency chooses to either buy the item or roll it themselves. Somehow though, people need to be convinced to use orbs. If the community as a whole is using orbs at the same rate that they are finding them, then it will become stable.

You're only talking about the super high end. Please do not forget that a game really does exist between character start and whatever "endgame" is decided to be. A lot of game, at that.

There is huge incentive to use orbs here and there playing through the game. It's not quite as strong as twink items, but the items produced are much, much stronger than anything the first character I ever made had.

I tend to think of orb value as: the things you can buy from NPC vendors (eh, occasionally get some sexy links from Gruest) + the things you can craft and trade for with those orbs + the value you get using them during normal gameplay - the constant grind of new orbs entering the system.

The NPC vending is fairly easy for the devs to work out. Trivially just remove tier1 mods (so they're not an endgame equipment source), make an RGB linked item cost a chroma (already), and run the numbers.

The 'constant grind' decrease in purchasing power is also easy to model just off of drop rates.

Technically the crafting is easy to explain with probability, but trading those things around introduces lots of places to store ambiguous value, such as sentimental value, `don't want to fucking roll 300 jewelers to make this 6sock` detracting, the pride of owning the first godsword with perfect everything, etc. Also, what's a non-craftable unique worth? (Ugh, getting messy now...)

Lastly there is this big ambiguous normal use field. The best someone might be able to do is figure out by how much faster it gets you to endgame and then use that saved time as its value, but I find that hard to measure myself, and not complete. I said earlier that it's liberating to be able to throw random orbs onto your equipment while playing and that is worth quite a lot. It's the difference between starving and being able to select your meal.

I suggest playing a new character without using the stash to get a feel for the worth of an orb during normal play. I'd say it's at least half the typical value of the currency, if not more. Also remember that endgame grinding is not normal behavior in any video game (well, maybe the WoW generation changed this up on me) and that the long tail of 5-10 hour a week players usually adds up to more time than is spent in endgame crafting by the 'whales' of the system.

Both are large segments, I'd be interested to hear something from GGG about stats after the game goes live. One example, look to the Ladder page. I see 50 pages of people above level 60 (which I'm going to arbitrarily define as endgame) out of 2087 total pages. What do you think an alchemy orb is worth to random guy number 5981 at level 31 versus Kramerr?

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Related digression from here on out.

Nobody is going to optimize a weapon for some random level between 1 and 80 (unless there's a boundary somewhere in there; something like "Level 20 capped PvP" or "Level 40 capped PvP" would do some crazy shit to the economy and I'm not going to think about it any more), and yet people are always asking "Anyone have a <random skill gem> for trade?", "Anyone have a decent level 30 2h maul?", "Anyone have a 4link body armor for a level 40 caster?", "Anyone have aspd gloves? (I can't afford and don't need perfect ones.)"

Furthermore, the value of any given orb changes as you play through the game. Alchemy and Chaos orbs have virtually no worth in endgame (as should be obvious by the OP), but are vitally important throughout the normal game and starting endgame. GCPs are fucking fantastic until you've maxed your main skill(s) and their supports (trivially, you only need 20*24 GCPs to max (from nothing) every skill in every slot of your equipment, and often much less than that).

The value of Chromatics doesn't change (I need a fuckton in the endgame to get, say, RRRGGB on my 6link, and I need a few fistfuls to get that GGBB link in the normal game). Fusings are similar (to get your first 4link is a HUGE step up in damage, and the sooner you get that, the easier the game is, or the metric fuckton you need for 6links endgame).

Lastly, it's not impossible for random John Doe to get an exalted or a mirror and, unless he's been watching trades or reading the forums like a madman, not know its endgame worth.

Combine all of that and there is a silly amounts of arbitrage in midgame trading, and similar to forex trading, you can make mint just pushing orbs around between people at different points of the game.


EDIT: And while I typed this up, Chop managed to hit on a few of my points for me, namely in the digression talking about fusing, trading up/down... Damnit. :P

haha, was good read <3

was about to walk away, but no time to reply atm ... gotta check radar again b4 bed.

How about an affix removal orb to solve the RNG-prevalence issue:

-it would never drop
-it would cost a consequent/high set amount of farm for reagents (i'm thinking a comparable effort to farming 20/30 gcp in the current beta)
-the orb would either remove the affix of your choice or a random one from a given rare or blue item

sorry if this has been discussed before might have missed a page or two

ps: Tornadoes oO ? seems like you live in a warzone Chop x)

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dolpiff wrote:

How about an affix removal orb to solve the RNG-prevalence issue:

-it would never drop
-it would cost a consequent/high set amount of farm for reagents (i'm thinking a comparable effort to farming 20/30 gcp in the current beta)
-the orb would either remove the affix of your choice or a random one from a given rare or blue item

sorry if this has been discussed before might have missed a page or two

ps: Tornadoes oO ? seems like you live in a warzone Chop x)

that idea's been floating around for awhile, even asked by devs. known in this thread as scour 2.0 i believe.

it gives option to roll godly, but with high odds, and gives option to stop at decent if decent is rolled.

i also like this option, but i think it vastly helps out the power gamer over the casual, and is really close to putting a set time on attaining godly.

with the ability to roll godly from the continual re-roll of same mod slot, the cost to remove mod would be high (as you suggest @ 20-30gcp +the exalted to add mod) which wouldnt really help casual players that would struggle to attain 40x scour + items + 4 exalted for the infusing orb thats 100% high mid range weapon/item.

and the random removal would make even me rage ... could you imagine scour 2.0 the cruel mod after you have scour 2.0's all the way to cruel + phys and shooting for ed/accu or ias? lol. oh man the rage.

i still wouldnt trash it as a possible option in some form or another.

(and yea, tornado season is bad. seems to get worse every year and moves further east towards me. will 100% be installing an underground shelter of some kind within the next year @ new house. lots lost all they had, and some even lost their lives yesterday in those storms =( ... )

1 other fairly easy sounding suggestion that relates to crafting id give is :

have all 3 prefix on top of mod box with a line break for 3 suffixes at bottom.

this would drastically help new players to this style of item system understand it a lot quicker and easier.

i.e.

blue item

Item Name

prefix
open prefix
open prefix
------------
suffix
open suffix
open suffix

its crude, and can be improved, but the general idea is there.

thought about this after mark was worried about people using scour 2.0 to remove a mod and not understanding it couldnt be used the way they wanted.

compare that to a good 70%+ of the player base or more not even understanding how the mod system works lol.

Arreat Summit had a good list of item prefixes and suffixes. They listed which ones could be on what items at what levels. It also listed which ones could be on rares and which ones (the more powerful ones) could only be on magic items. This was helpful to me when i got into crafting in D2.

This game, however, allows you to upgrade magic items to rare, so I imagine the restrictions are different.

afaik all listed prefix/suffix can spawn on both magic and rare in poe. there's alot of people who dont know what a prefix or suffix is, or a rare can have 3 of each with magic 1 of each.

that was the basic idea with the whole mod slots on item thing.

listind ed and ed/accu along with sd and sd/mana sperate would also go miles in helping divine usage. that or allow somehow to see mod names on items in game.

GGG already said somewhere that they want to bring this modlist in at some point - so we can see what exact mods are used on a given item.
In rare cases there is no way to tell if the item has 5 or 6 mods on it or if the rolled mods are both tier 2 or one is 3 and one is 1 making it more difficult for players to start crafting as it has to.

GGG could maybe bring in an UI-option you could toggle between exact mods shown or combined mods shown - that you can switch with a key on the fly.

@Modlist on the page: they need to put in item restrictions (can spawn on ...) and levels (mod will put any item it spawns on to level ...).
I did a list back in .92 before the page had it and stopped as they announced the list would be on the page - but was a bit disappointed to not see this things here.


ok back to your orbs ;)