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I agree that premium tabs already downed the market pretty hard. As so it's a foresight what would happen if you implement an even more convenient system.
Not necessarily. I think that there is a point where the system is convenient enough for most of the valuable stuff to make it to the market. And it seems to me like we already reached that point. So, i don't think that the supply of decent gear will increase enough to cause any kind of crash. I can see how there would be some drop in price, but not as extreme as you are predicting.
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Sure you all will be happy for a moment because no more AFK or offline people. But that will quickly be forgotten and then the focus will come onto the part where you aren't generating any currency unless you sit infront of the AH (Like pretty much any other game that has an AH)
The thing I genuinely don't understand is if you are already whining about flipping now and how people profit of the current system how the hell do you think it will be when every little bit of effort is removed? The only way then will be to sit infront of an AH trading all day. Trying to snatch up good deals. You really wanna play poe like that?
That's already the case. Flipping items is already extremely profitable. On top of that, it's much easier now than it would be in an AH. You don't need to look for good deals, they literally pop up on your screen. In an AH, you would need to actually do work to find under-priced items.
Have you used D3's AH? You had to in-put affixes all over again for each new search. Can you imagine how much work it would take, comparing to poe.trade? Even if GGG allows you to save filters, it would still be a lot more work, since you would need to manually go through the listings.
In poe.trade you can setup as many filters as you want, turn on auto-notifications, and save them. You can also save all active filters in your browser. So when you open a fresh browser, you can load all of the filters with a couple clicks. And then you can keep playing the game, or watch a movie, and have under-priced items pop up on your screen.
You forgetting one simple thing. Compared to D3, Poe is more knowledge based. It was pretty easy to determine a good item from a bad one in D3. In PoE you need actual knowledge. It's not like someone who started a month ago can snipe items, because he wouldn't even know what to buy.
So in that regard it's not even so much about flippers doing the same thing. It's about forcing me and many others to sit infront of the AH because it will net 100x what you could ever pull out of a map.
Regardless of how convenient you want trade to be for you, trade is part of PoE like mapping is. Will they ever automate mapping? Or make it more convenient? They need to make trade a part of the game that requires time and effort just like mapping does. You like mapping? You go map. You want to trade? You go trade. It's time to stop dictating every game to your personal desires.
I've had alot of conversations over time about trading in PoE.
Usually the ones for one, are either
1. new.
2. experience but lacking the time required
3. plain bad at trading
All 3 of these people think an AH will fix all their problems, but they will just make it worse. You still won't be rich without effort, you still won't be able to buy GG gear cheap and you still won't sell shit.
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Posted byMiskáon Oct 18, 2017, 6:27:40 PM
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It doesn't matter what you call it. If you allow people to easily drop an item into your system and come back later to find that someone has left them something for it, you will flood the market with items that people currently don't want to bother with.
People don't seem to realize the scope of that.
You'll get a VAST increase in supply. You'll also decrease the demand for your items because your customers will have already bought items that they're happy with.
It shouldn't take a master's degree to figure out that your "market" will crash.
But this has literally already happened, didn't you play before ggg implemented an api? When they released public stash tabs all the prices for items crashed. hard. Trading is extremely accessible as it is, it doesn't require a masters degree to tick a premium tag as public and set a b/o. The only thing an AH does is improve qol.
You weren't seriously just saying that a fully automated AH is the same as PoE.trade as we have it right now. You know, where you actually have to go to people and buy it? You surely aren't.
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Posted byMiskáon Oct 18, 2017, 6:30:14 PM
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It doesn't matter what you call it. If you allow people to easily drop an item into your system and come back later to find that someone has left them something for it, you will flood the market with items that people currently don't want to bother with.
People don't seem to realize the scope of that.
You'll get a VAST increase in supply. You'll also decrease the demand for your items because your customers will have already bought items that they're happy with.
It shouldn't take a master's degree to figure out that your "market" will crash.
But this has literally already happened, didn't you play before ggg implemented an api? When they released public stash tabs all the prices for items crashed. hard. Trading is extremely accessible as it is, it doesn't require a masters degree to tick a premium tag as public and set a b/o. The only thing an AH does is improve qol.
You weren't seriously just saying that a fully automated AH is the same as PoE.trade as we have it right now. You know, where you actually have to go to people and buy it? You surely aren't.
yes I am, this would change nothing in supply/demand because everyone who owns premium tabs (and that own't change) can list items for sale, total volume will be the same; which is a big difference compared to when there was no api and people had to manually list items in forum threads (about 5% of players or less had a shop thread) and keep the thread updated; after the api changes prices dropped to 1/10th of what they were for most items. The latter is a much larger step than between what we have now and having that automated, its simply qol.
But, let me be clear again. I said GGG needs to at LEAST copy poe.trade as it is into the game, because now they are selling premium tabs because of the functionality a 3d party website adds to them. Who would buy premium tabs if you couldn't list items on them to trade?
Last edited by thevdende on Oct 18, 2017, 6:43:53 PM
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Posted bythevdendeon Oct 18, 2017, 6:43:20 PM
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I've had alot of conversations over time about trading in PoE.
Usually the ones for one, are either
1. new.
2. experience but lacking the time required
3. plain bad at trading
All 3 of these people think an AH will fix all their problems, but they will just make it worse. You still won't be rich without effort, you still won't be able to buy GG gear cheap and you still won't sell shit.
I'm not new, so I'm pretty sure I fall into number 3 :)
Seriously, though, I'm curious... How does an AH make #2 worse? People seem to imagine it having the same search potential as the 3rd party websites (unlike the Chinese or Xbox trade boards) and with instant buyouts (so... not actually an auction per se).
Unless you mean an actual auction house... which then invalidates a whole lot of complaints... especially if the minimum time for an auction is set to be a decently long time. That could easily be set to be way more time consuming, tedious, or inefficient than slaying monsters for drops.
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...Who would buy premium tabs if you couldn't list items on them to trade?
I'm pretty sure they sold some before the public API was created.
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Posted bySudianXon Oct 18, 2017, 6:59:23 PM
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yes I am, this would change nothing in supply/demand because everyone who owns premium tabs (and that own't change) can list items for sale, total volume will be the same; which is a big difference compared to when there was no api and people had to manually list items in forum threads (about 5% of players or less had a shop thread) and keep the thread updated; after the api changes prices dropped to 1/10th of what they were for most items. The latter is a much larger step than between what we have now and having that automated, its simply qol.
Think about it for a minute; if GGG develop their own PoE trade functionality, do you still think they'll require the use of premium tabs? Personally, I doubt it - because then this game would not only be "indirectly" P2W, but pretty damn directly, because they HAVE to "close" the API if they make something themselves. So we go from "people with premium stash tabs can trade pretty easy" to "everyone can trade easy", and you still don't think the economy will be affected - "it's only QoL"? Doubt it.
On a side note: GGG can't really "win" on that; if they keep the need of a premium tab, people will CRY "P2W". If they don't keep the need for it, people will cry "REFUND!!! I only bought the damn thing for trading".
Sometimes, just sometimes, you should really consider adapting to the world, instead of demanding that the world adapts to you.
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Posted byPhrazzon Oct 18, 2017, 7:10:50 PM
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yes I am, this would change nothing in supply/demand because everyone who owns premium tabs (and that won't change) can list items for sale, total volume will be the same; which is a big difference compared to when there was no api and people had to manually list items in forum threads (about 5% of players or less had a shop thread) and keep the thread updated; after the api changes prices dropped to 1/10th of what they were for most items. The latter is a much larger step than between what we have now and having that automated, its simply qol.
Think about it for a minute; if GGG develop their own PoE trade functionality, do you still think they'll require the use of premium tabs? Personally, I doubt it - because then this game would not only be "indirectly" P2W, but pretty damn directly, because they HAVE to "close" the API if they make something themselves. So we go from "people with premium stash tabs can trade pretty easy" to "everyone can trade easy", and you still don't think the economy will be affected - "it's only QoL"? Doubt it.
On a side note: GGG can't really "win" on that; if they keep the need of a premium tab, people will CRY "P2W". If they don't keep the need for it, people will cry "REFUND!!! I only bought the damn thing for trading".
PoE has always had a whiff of P2W though, how do you trade without premium tabs/extra tabs in general? Technically, you can do shaper with 5 normal tabs, but its not going to be fun. You are right, GGG have maneuvered themselves into a bad position regarding premium tabs and poe.trade.
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So we go from "people with premium stash tabs can trade pretty easy" to "everyone can trade easy", and you still don't think the economy will be affected - "it's only QoL"? Doubt it.
The only way to know this is to see the stats of % players trading with premium tabs. I'm pretty sure that players who grind end game are the ones who basically supply most of the economy, having this available to them won't change much in quantity of items added to the economy. The only thing that might change is price of low lvl uniques, value of some currency will probably drop a bit, but I doubt the market will suffer for it.
I'd argue the difference between having api open or in the client is arbitrary, plus a lot fairer to new players who could learn how to trade much easier through a short tutorial. I understand your point, ggg doesn't really have an obvious way out atm; they would indeed create an obvious p2w element, but who are we kidding really, it's here already. I still think relying on 3d party website to add value to a product is pretty shady, and it would suit ggg to get rid of that.
Last edited by thevdende on Oct 18, 2017, 7:38:57 PM
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Posted bythevdendeon Oct 18, 2017, 7:37:48 PM
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It's about forcing me and many others to sit infront of the AH because it will net 100x what you could ever pull out of a map.
My point is that poe.trade has already brought us to that point. Flipping is already as lucrative as it can get. AH will be less convenient in that regard. AH will actually pull people away from flipping, because of how much effort you'd need to put into it. You'd need to stop playing, go into AH, and then manually go through the listings. I tried that back in D3 and it sucked. The only time i bought under-priced items was when i was looking up items for myself. In the current system, you can't tear me away from flipping, because of how easy and profitable it is.
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Regardless of how convenient you want trade to be for you, trade is part of PoE like mapping is. Will they ever automate mapping? Or make it more convenient? They need to make trade a part of the game that requires time and effort just like mapping does. You like mapping? You go map. You want to trade? You go trade. It's time to stop dictating every game to your personal desires.
I've had alot of conversations over time about trading in PoE.
Usually the ones for one, are either
1. new.
2. experience but lacking the time required
3. plain bad at trading
All 3 of these people think an AH will fix all their problems, but they will just make it worse. You still won't be rich without effort, you still won't be able to buy GG gear cheap and you still won't sell shit.
If convenient mapping will make the game more enjoyable, then hell yeah. Make it more convenient. Please.
What i know is that poe.trade made the game more enjoyable for me. I don't find it too easy to gear, and i don't feel like the economy is dying. That's why i believe that an even more convenient system will make it even more enjoyable. I'm really not seeing all this negative stuff you do.
And what concerns me about what you are saying are not your points (they are good points if you look at things from your perspective), but the extreme claims that you make, and the way that you present them. You make these giant leaps, and there is just nothing to back em up. You can't make those claims with the information that we currently have.
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Posted byDeletedon Oct 18, 2017, 7:53:42 PM
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PoE has always had a whiff of P2W though, how do you trade without premium tabs/extra tabs in general? Technically, you can do shaper with 5 normal tabs, but its not going to be fun. You are right, GGG have maneuvered themselves into a bad position regarding premium tabs and poe.trade.
They have. And no, I wouldn't call it P2W today. There are apps like Procurement and Acquisition that let's you trade "pretty easy" without the need of Premium Tabs. I know several people trading this way.
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The only way to know this is to see the stats of % players trading with premium tabs. I'm pretty sure that players who grind end game are the ones who basically supply most of the economy, having this available to them won't change much in quantity of items added to the economy. The only thing that might change is price of low lvl uniques, value of some currency will probably drop a bit, but I doubt the market will suffer for it.
I'd argue the difference between having api open or in the client is arbitrary, plus a lot fairer to new players who could learn how to trade much easier through a short tutorial. I understand your point, ggg doesn't really have an obvious way out atm; they would indeed create an obvious p2w element, but who are we kidding really, it's here already. I still think relying on 3d party website to add value to a product is pretty shady, and it would suit ggg to get rid of that.
Don't get me wrong here, I would love for GGG to in-source something like PoE trade and "close" the API. Almost everything is better than an easily "abusable" third party site, along with an public API where people with the know-how outside of game mechanics get an advantage. What I view as "unhealthy" to the economy, is instant buyouts. Like Chris indicated in the quote i posted in my last post; IF we're going to have instant buyouts, there needs to be other forms of limitations, where he mentioned the search function as one possible limitation.
Sometimes, just sometimes, you should really consider adapting to the world, instead of demanding that the world adapts to you.
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Posted byPhrazzon Oct 18, 2017, 7:57:37 PM
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It's about forcing me and many others to sit infront of the AH because it will net 100x what you could ever pull out of a map.
My point is that poe.trade has already brought us to that point. Flipping is already as lucrative as it can get. AH will be less convenient in that regard. AH will actually pull people away from flipping, because of how much effort you'd need to put into it. You'd need to stop playing, go into AH, and then manually go through the listings. I tried that back in D3 and it sucked. The only time i bought under-priced items was when i was looking up items for myself. In the current system, you can't tear me away from flipping, because of how easy and profitable it is.
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Regardless of how convenient you want trade to be for you, trade is part of PoE like mapping is. Will they ever automate mapping? Or make it more convenient? They need to make trade a part of the game that requires time and effort just like mapping does. You like mapping? You go map. You want to trade? You go trade. It's time to stop dictating every game to your personal desires.
I've had alot of conversations over time about trading in PoE.
Usually the ones for one, are either
1. new.
2. experience but lacking the time required
3. plain bad at trading
All 3 of these people think an AH will fix all their problems, but they will just make it worse. You still won't be rich without effort, you still won't be able to buy GG gear cheap and you still won't sell shit.
If convenient mapping will make the game more enjoyable, then hell yeah. Make it more convenient. Please.
What i know is that poe.trade made the game more enjoyable for me. I don't find it too easy to gear, and i don't feel like the economy is dying. That's why i believe that an even more convenient system will make it even more enjoyable. I'm really not seeing all this negative stuff you do.
And what concerns me about what you are saying are not your points (they are good points if you look at things from your perspective), but the extreme claims that you make, and the way that you present them. You make these giant leaps, and there is just nothing to back em up. You can't make those claims with the information that we currently have.
We will never see eye to eye on this. Your information and experience is to limited to have a conversation with that will ever achieve anything at all. No offense ment but I probably have 10k hours more into this game then you have. I trade alot, in all kinds of markets. When you quote some of my posts I sometimes believe you just downloaded the game. Your limited knowledge (or perhaps ignorance) is in the way of communicating.
For example, everytime we talk about flipping you talk about currency. There are way more lucrative 'flipping' methods in the game then currency flipping. And an AH will only allow that part to become insanely stupid for the people with the knowledge required. Second, any claim I make has some merit. Some of it from GGG themselves over the years, others from countless of hours of experience actually playing the game.
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Posted byMiskáon Oct 18, 2017, 9:59:55 PM
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yes I am, this would change nothing in supply/demand because everyone who owns premium tabs (and that own't change) can list items for sale, total volume will be the same; which is a big difference compared to when there was no api and people had to manually list items in forum threads (about 5% of players or less had a shop thread) and keep the thread updated; after the api changes prices dropped to 1/10th of what they were for most items. The latter is a much larger step than between what we have now and having that automated, its simply qol.
But, let me be clear again. I said GGG needs to at LEAST copy poe.trade as it is into the game, because now they are selling premium tabs because of the functionality a 3d party website adds to them. Who would buy premium tabs if you couldn't list items on them to trade?
There are still many people that don't want to bother with every item. Wich will go offline while running lab. That simply don't want to get pmed all the time and leave the map. In other words BARRIERS that wouldn't be there with an AH. Jeez how hard is it to actually think a moment and pretend for 1 sec you aren't so biased you can actually give an intelligent response.
P.s Premium tabs were in the game way before you could sell with them. They sold plenty of them back then. Why would it be any difference now? Not to mention manually listing in the forum? You never heard of procurement and aquisition? Have you even played this game for longer then 1 league?
Last edited by Miská on Oct 18, 2017, 10:04:03 PM
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Posted byMiskáon Oct 18, 2017, 10:03:44 PM
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